Answers to a Trinitarian

Answers to Trinitarians

Dear brother,

Thank you for your request, I have listed 13 specific points in the email, if I have left anything out please let us know.

1. Teaching that Christ being born in eternity means he is a lesser god.

2. I am

3. Isa 9:6

4. Heb 9:14

5. Luke 1:35 “heavenly trio since Bethlehem”?

6. Heavenly trio article

7. Original unborrowed underived

8. Only begotten by incarnation not prior

9. Monogenes

10. Never was a time when he was not in close fellowship

11. One quote from SOP that Jesus was born in eternity

12. Supportive of church

13. Denial of the 3rd angel, receive the mark and worship the beast

Much could be written for each of these points. The following is only a brief summary.

1. Teaching that Christ being born in eternity means He is a lesser god.

The words of James White seem appropriate. “Did God say to an inferior let us make man in our image?” Gen 1:26

Nor is this some council between 3 co-eternals as trinitarians would have us believe. Commenting on this text the SOP states in VOL 1 P 24,25. “And God said to His Son let us make man in our image”. This too is interesting for this email states that Christ became the Son at the incarnation. Here we see God the Father speaking to His son about the creation of man. Compare Heb 1:2 & Eph 3:9, God made the worlds by His Son.

Many stumble over how Christ could be born in eternity and yet be equal with God, so they misrepresent our teaching and claim, if this is so Jesus must be a lesser god? As this brother has done here. This is not an honorable method of objecting to another’s doctrine. Please note the words “If Christ is born in eternity it makes him a lesser god”. These are his words not ours. But immediately it infers this is what we teach and believe, when infact it is his own conclusion because he has not studied the subject carefully!

Our position regarding Christ being equal with God is well documented. We publish an exert from E. J Waggoner’s book, “Christ our Righteousness.” Dealing with “How shall we Consider Christ?”

If Christ was a lesser god we would have no atonement.

Scripture clearly teaches as a Son, Christ is equal with God.

Jn 5:18, Jn 10:30,33,36, Jn 1:1

In Heb 1:3 we are told the Son is the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person. How can the Son be a lesser god, when inspiration declares He is the outshining of His Father and the express image of His person? These words are used to convey the fullness of the Godhead manifested in Christ.

1 Tim 3:16, Phil 2:6.

In Heb 1:4 we see the Son has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name. That name is the name of His Father, the character of His Father.

Heb 1:4 “being made so much better than the angels” this word “made” 1096 means to come into being, to become. It is speaking about a time when the Son came into being or was born. Compare the same word in Gal 4:4 God sent forth His Son “made” of a woman (many translate this word quite correctly “born’ of a woman. This is exactly what Heb 1:4 is saying. Christ was born so much better that the angels, please note this can not refer to His human birth because chapter 2 states that Christ was made “lower” than the angels in His human birth. Heb 2:9, 16.

Notice what Heb 1:4 goes on to say, being made so much better than the angels as he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name or (character) than they.

Now notice how Christ obtained a more excellent name or character (a divine character) than the angels, it says by inheritance. Only a Son can inherit. At His birth Christ inherited all the attributes of His Father. Paul reemphasizes this in the following 2 verses when he asks unto which of the angels said He at any time, though art my Son this day I have begotten thee. Notice also verse 6, and again when He bringeth the first begotten into the world.

It is the trinitarian that is guilty of making Jesus a lesser god. They are the ones who deny His true Sonship, His true inheritance. They also deny the Fatherhood of God and make Him a liar for they believe not the record that He gave of His Son. 1 Jn 5:10 They have received another gospel, another Jesus. So if it not the Son of God they worship and believe who is it? The jews chose Barrabas over Jesus, both were called Son of the Father but inspiration declares one was a robber. Jn 18:40 (see booklet Altar of the Lord)

No friend, it is not us that believe Jesus is a lesser god. We believe and confess “That Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father” Phil 2:11

2. “I AM”

Much could be said on this point.

When Christ stated “before Abraham was I AM” what did He mean? We know God the Father is the great I AM. Here Christ claims the same title. Does this mean there are two I AM’s?

We must understand an important biblical principle.

Since the sin of our first parents, there has been no direct communication between God and man…. All the communion between heaven and the fallen race has been through Christ. TMK 102

In Ex 23:20, 21 we read

23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name [is] in him.

He we see God’s name in Christ, as we noted in Heb 1:4.

SOP declares! Christ is he who represents the Father

While it is certainly true that it was Christ who spoke to Moses from the burning bush and it was Christ who spoke to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is also true that Christ was the direct communication between God and the fathers.

Notice Acts 3:13

3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.

Please read carefully the following inspired statements that clarify this point. Notice who is called the great

I AM in these passages.

Tmk 102

God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor. 5:19. {TMK 102.1}

All through the pages of sacred history, where the dealings of God with His chosen people are recorded, there are burning traces of the great I AM. . . . In all these revelations of the divine presence, the glory of God was manifested through Christ. Not alone at the Saviour's advent, but through all the ages after the fall and the promise of redemption, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." Christ was the foundation and center of the sacrificial system in both the patriarchal and the Jewish age. Since the sin of our first parents, there has been no direct communication between God and man. The Father has given the world into the hands of Christ, that through His mediatorial work He may redeem man, and vindicate the authority and holiness of the law of God. All the communion between heaven and the fallen race has been through Christ. It was the Son of God that gave to our first parents the promise of redemption. It was He who revealed Himself to the patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses understood the gospel. They looked for salvation through man's Substitute and Surety. . . . {TMK 102.2}

Man cannot by searching find out God. Let none seek with presumptuous hand to lift the veil that conceals His glory. "Unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" Romans 11:33. It is a proof of His mercy that there is the hiding of His power; for to lift the veil that conceals the divine presence is death. No mortal mind can penetrate the secrecy in which the Mighty One dwells and works. Only that which He sees fit to reveal can we comprehend of Him. Reason must acknowledge an authority superior to itself. Heart and intellect must bow to the great I AM. {8T 285.2}All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}"No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. {8T 286.2}

Many more could be cited but from these we clearly see God the father is called the great I AM.

Now notice this next statement were Jesus is called the great I AM

In Christ Jesus is a revelation of the glory of the Godhead. All that the human agent can know of God to the saving of the soul, is the measure of the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus, to which he can attain; for Christ is he who represents the Father. The most wonderful truth to be grasped by men is the truth, "Immanuel, God with us." Christ is the wisdom of God. He is the great "I AM" to the world. As we contemplate the glory of the divine character as revealed in Christ, we are led to exclaim, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" This wisdom is displayed in the love that reaches out for the recovery of lost and ruined man. {ST, December 12, 1895 par. 5}

Notice carefully Christ is he who represents the father… He is the great I AM to the world!

Come to the DA p 469

With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." {DA 469.4}

Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin. {DA 469.5}

Again the priests and rabbis cried out against Jesus as a blasphemer. His claim to be one with God had before stirred them to take His life, and a few months later they plainly declared, "For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest Thyself God." John 10:33. Because He was, and avowed Himself to be, the Son of God, they were bent on destroying Him. Now many of the people, siding with the priests and rabbis, took up stones to cast at Him. "But Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." {DA 470.1}

Notice the name of God! Had been claimed his own by this Galilean rabbi. Notice also he had announced himself to be the self existent One.

Who did Christ announce himself to be? The self existent One who had been promised to Israel.

(Remember the Great I AM to the world) Micah 5:2 margin.

Dear friend Micah 5:2 is a prophecy about the Son of God, the King of Israel whose goings fourth (origin)

Is from everlasting

(See meaning for everlasting 5769 olam vanishing point, out of mind, practically eternity)

Goings fourth 4163, 4161- descent, origin, source, family line.

You see when Jesus spoke before Abraham was I AM He was claiming to be the Messiah, The King of Israel. The One who had been promised to Israel. The One whose origin (birth) was from the days of eternity as the prophet states.

It was the Son of God who had been promised to Israel. When Christ claimed the name of God he was claiming to be one with God p. 470 and the priest rabbis understood this, notice they were once again bent on destroy him because He was and avowed Himself to be the Son of God.

No where in scripture does Christ claim to be the only true God.

Christ rightly shares many titles with the Father, but He is never called the Most High, He is the Son of the Most High. Mk 5:7 He is never called the One who sits on the throne. He sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Heb 1:3 He is never called the One God and Father of all. He is never called the Ancient of Days. Nor by His own words the only true God. Jn 17:3

These are absolute titles, you can only have one only true God, you can only have one Most High, there can only be one, One God and Father of all. Etc.

These titles belong to the Father He is Absolute Godhead. 7BC 9 13 . He is the originator and source of all life! He is the One of whom are all things. 1 Cor 8:6. Even Jesus proceeded forth and came from God. (for clarification that Jesus was here speaking about His birth in eternity. See DA 467)

There is only One great I AM, God the Father.

Notice also in Heb1:8 the Father calls Christ God. But then in verse 9 states therefore God even thy God.

Yes, even Jesus has a God and Father. 1 Pet 1:3, Eph 1:3,17, Rev 3:12

3. Isa 9:6 This beautiful text is only confusing to the trinitarian for they would have to admit to having two everlasting Fathers and maybe even three.

Isa 9:6 is a promise unto us a child is born, (incarnation) unto us a son is given.

This is a promise that through the incarnation God would give His only begotten Son and the titles that follow are the result of this gift.

Please note although this is a prophecy regarding the name this Son shall be called, not once do we find Jesus called any of these names in the New Testament. What we do find is in His ministry he fulfilled every one of these titles. For eg. Wonderful (6382) This word means this Son would be different, separate, from any man that has ever lived. He would perform marvelous and wondrous works. He would be remarkable.

Counselor, He would be a Counselor, our Teacher, and Comforter.

Mighty God, Notice the words of the angel. Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

In His life Christ demonstrated the mighty works of God.

Luke 9:43 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,

Luke 1:32,33 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Compare Isa 9:6,7.

Prince of Peace, Eph 2:12-14 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]

Everlasting Father, In what way is Christ our everlasting Father? Notice DA 483

However much a shepherd may love his sheep, he loves his sons and daughters more. Jesus is not only our shepherd; He is our "everlasting Father." And He says, "I know Mine own, and Mine own know Me, even as the Father knoweth Me, and I know the Father." John 10:14, 15, R. V. What a statement is this!--the only-begotten Son, He who is in the bosom of the Father, He whom God has declared to be "the Man that is My fellow" (Zech. 13:7),--the communion between Him and the eternal God is taken to represent the communion between Christ and His children on the earth! {DA 483.2}

Many interpret Isa 9:6 to mean Christ became the Son by virtue of the incarnation. As the first line states Unto us a child is born, which clearly refers to Bethlehem. Notice again how the SOP interprets this same passage.

DA 25 "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son." John 3:16. He gave Him not only to bear our sins, and to die as our sacrifice; He gave Him to the fallen race. To assure us of His immutable counsel of peace, God gave His only-begotten Son to become one of the human family, forever to retain His human nature. This is the pledge that God will fulfill His word. "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder." God has adopted human nature in the person of His Son, and has carried the same into the highest heaven. It is the "Son of man" who shares the throne of the universe. It is the "Son of man" whose name shall be called, "Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isa. 9:6.

The prophet states Isa 9:6 is the pledge that God would fulfill His word in giving His only begotten Son.

Unto us a Son is given. Also she states God made this promise from His immutable council of peace, which was before sin existed.

DA 22 The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

4. Heb 9:14

This is an interesting point for here the writer applies this text to Jesus, which I agree. Most trinitarians apply this text to the Holy Spirit as a separate person. Which of coarse destroys the context of the whole passage. The text states clearly Christ offered himself through the, or by virtue of the eternal Spirit. Christ did not need someone else to offer Him, this is absurd. Heb 1:3 states, “when he had by himself purged our sins”. It is the eternal Spirit that made his offering complete. This eternal Spirit is the Spirit of the eternal God, of whom the Son has received in all its fullness, as noted earlier. God suffered with His Son.

DA 762 He sacrificed Himself, in Christ, for man's redemption. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Cor. 5:19. {DA 762.1}

Any parent who has stood by a suffering child, can grasp the meaning of these words.

Our lives are into interwoven with our children we share their joys and we suffer their pains and sorrows.

When our love ones suffer what would we do to take their place, often we can do no more than pray and be close to them. Our loving Father could have shielded his Son, but for his infinite love for us went through the agony of standing by helpless. The Allmighty had to allow his Son to suffer and could not even reveal Himself to Him. He had to make darkness his pavilion. The Son had to tread the winepress alone, what infinite love. No wander inspiration records! Satan the determined that man shall not see the love of God that led him to give his only begotten Son to save a lost race Ism 157.

Also on the eternal Spirit compare acts 20:28.

5. this is strange reasoning it is stated that there was a heavenly trio “since Bethlehem” this is the same as point 8 “only begotten by incarnation not prior”.

How do people come to these conclusions when Scripture declares God gave of His Son, He delivered Him up, God send only his begotten Son into the world Jn 3:16 Rom 8:32 1 Jn 4:9

If God sent his only begotten Son into the world he must have had a Son to send. Some try to place Jn 3:16 at the incarnation but it says God gave his only begotten Son, this is past tense and the next verse states for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

In the SOP there are abundant statements referring to the only begotten Son before he came to this world example The Eternal Father, the unchangeable one, gave his only begotten Son, tore from his bosom Him who was made in the express image of his person, and sent him down to earth to reveal how greatly he loved mankind. RH July 9 1895. Notice this is how God reveals how greatly he loves us, in sending his only begotten Son to Earth. A Son made in the express image of his person, torn from his bosom to die for our sins. This is what the trinty denies!

Regarding Luke 1:35 we are told

Christ brought men and women power to overcome. He came to this world in human form, to live a man amongst men. He assumed the liabilities of human nature, to be proved and tried. In His humanity He was a partaker of the divine nature. In His incarnation He gained in a new sense the title of the Son of God. Said the angel to Mary, "The power of the Highest shall overshadow

Thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). While the Son of a human being, He became the Son of God in a new sense. Thus He stood in our world--the Son of God, yet allied by birth to the human race. {1SM 226.2}

At the incarnation Christ became the Son of God in a new sense.

As the statement declares thus he stood in our world the Son of God, yet allied by birth to the human race.

Can’t people see when you deny Christ’s Sonship and God’s Fatherhood before Bethlehem they contradict scripture and destroy how God manifests his love to us?

6. Heavenly Trio

Please see our study “Three living persons of the Heavenly Trio”

In this statement the prophet is meeting Kellogg’s heretical teachings, time, place and context must be considered. Otherwise, I can quote SOP statements where the Spirit is called “The power of God” or “an influence” and I would be giving the wrong emphasis to her writings.

Many do not realize Kellogg became trinitarian when he revised the living temple and he was using the SOP to prove his views. Especially the statement “third person of the Godhead” See our booklet “Alpha and Omega” But Sister White challenged his views and the construction he put on the testimonies. The same thing is happening today, but she is no longer here to meet these miss-applied testimonies.

She states clearly that again and again God’s people will have to meet doctrines of satanic origin that seek to make a non-entity (non-being) of God and Christ. This is exactly what the trinity does. Kellogg was teaching god the spirit was in nature, pantheism is the natural progression of trinitarianism. Because he was trinitarian, because he believed in god the spirit he could not separate the Spirit of God from the functions or diversities of gifts of the Spirit. 1 Cor 12:4 Thus he had to conclude that god the spirit was in all nature, instead of God’s life giving Spirit which gives life to all nature. Jn 6:63, Heb 1:3.

1 Cor 12:6 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Consequently if god the spirit is in nature, he must be devoid of feelings, of love, of personality for trees and grasses etc. are devoid of these virtues. This is why she states there are three living persons. The spirit is not some inanimate god devoid of love and personality but is all the fullness of God manifested. (See ED 132)

Through his Spirit God has an intimate knowledge and personal interest in all the works of his hands.

Finally we need not guess what she means, for in the same passage the prophet tells us the Spirit is the Comforter and who does the prophet declare the comforter to be?

How essential that we have the enlightenment of the Spirit of God; for thus only can we see the glory of Christ, and by beholding become changed from character to character in and through faith in Christ. . . . He has grace and pardon for every soul. As by faith we look to Jesus, our faith pierces the shadow, and we adore God for His wondrous love in giving us Jesus the Comforter. . . . {SD 124.4}

The reason why the churches are weak and sickly and ready to die is that the enemy has brought influences of a discouraging nature to bear upon trembling souls. He has sought to shut Jesus from their view as the Comforter, as one who reproves, who warns, who admonishes them, saying, "This is the way, walk ye in it."{RC 21.3}

There is no comforter like Christ, so tender and so true. He is touched with the feeling of our infirmities. His Spirit speaks to the heart. Circumstances may separate us from our friends; the broad, restless ocean may roll between us and them. Though their sincere friendship may still exist, they may be unable to demonstrate it by doing for us that which would be gratefully received. But no circumstances, no distance, can separate us from the heavenly Comforter. {RH Oct 26, 1897}

Let them study the seventeenth of John, and learn how to pray and how to live the prayer of Christ. He is the Comforter. He will abide in their hearts, making their joy full. {RH Jan 27, 1903}

The Saviour is our Comforter. This I have proved Him to be. {8 MR 49}

Christ comes as a comforter to all who believe. He invites your confidence. He says, “Abide in me.” Surely we may trust in our loving Saviour. {8 MR 57}

As by faith we look to Jesus, our faith pierces the shadow, and we adore God for his wondrous love in giving Jesus the Comforter. {19 MR 296 297}

7.original, unborrowed and underived

Please note where this statement in da 5:30 has it’s source

Ism 296-297

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4). It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual receives. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Life-giver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself" (John 10: 18), He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess

It only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour.

Trinitarians use DA 530 to try and prove that Christ is co-eternal but this statement in 1SM 296-297 declares the saints also will have original unborrowed, underived life and it will be given them as a free gift. These words cannot be used to try and prove Jesus never had a beginning for the saints will be given this same life possessed through Christ. These adjectives describe the type of life Christ has and offers us

Jesus received this life from the Father, (Jn 5:26) and through Christ the Father’s life flows through us.

(Gal 4:6, Eph 4:6)

Also the word original does not have to mean singular. Trinitarians would have to agree because they believe there are 3 who posses this original life. More than one person can own an original item. The reason why an item is original is because it comes from a sole artist or creator, or from a primary source! You cannot get this original item from anywhere else, you must go to its author! Incidentally if you believe there are 3 persons who own this original life, to whom do you attribute its author?

For me the bible says “But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things…” He is the Author, the Creator, the primary Source of this original life. Now when you receive this original life, it is not borrowed, it is promised to you forever. Nor is it derived from Christ as the prophet states it is possessed through Christ. What a beautiful truth, Christ’s life becomes ours, through Christ is the open fountain of life to the world.

8. Covered Earlier in point 5

9. Monogenes

Why does the author quote some eminent theologian to defend his views?

Where is the strength of his convictions? Where is a clear “Thus saith the Lord” for his understanding of only begotten?

These eminent theologians want to change the meaning of these words because they don’t suit their theology.

Strongs concordance 3439- monogenes only born, only begotten child.

One may object and produce another source to show it can mean unique but let us allow scripture to define its meaning. Every time this word is used in the new testament it only means one thing “Only born child”

What right do men have to brake the biblical rule of interpretation ISA 28:10 and apply a different meaning to the word when referring to Jesus especially when the context is the same, referring to Him as the only begotten Son of God?

This same word is used three times in the gospel of Luke 7:12, 8:42, 9:38 no one would contest in these verses the word clearly means and only begotten Child. Yet when they come to Christ they want to apply a different meaning to the same word, even though it is used in the same context!

Futhermore for SDA’s it is much worse for you have to go against the SOP. Sister White had no problems with this word, she did not try to redefine it she used it over 18 hundred times! She often used the word only begotten for the Son in Heaven before he was sent here.

One text many use to try and redefine the word only begotten to mean unique is Heb 11:17 they declare Abraham and more than one son so they say the word can be used in a unique application.

Next time someone offers this excuse ask them how many sons did Abraham and Sarah have?

Of course the answer is one and this is the point.

Where in Heb 11 does it talk about Ishmael or the sons of kentura?

Heb 11:17- 19 is speaking about Isaac, Abraham’s only begotten son to Sarah, and its perfectly consistent with every other passage where this word is used in referring to an only born child.

10. this statement simply says there never was a time and Christ was not in close Fellowship with his Father.

This does not mean he did not have a beginning but simply there had never been a time when Christ was not in close unity or harmony with his Fathers will.

11. he asks for one quote from the SOP stating Christ was born in eternity. No problem but what about the scriptures? Surely we are to prove all things and give an answer to every one that asketh.

Prov 8:22, 24,25 = Pp 34

Ps 2:7

Jn 8:42= Da 467 Jn 16:27, 28 Jn 1:1 Jn 17:8

Col 1:15=Da 51

Heb 1:4 = 8T 268

These texts all speak of Christ being born in eternity ,please read the SOP passages that harmonize with them.

But the two statements that stand out for me are

ST May 30, 1895

“A complete offering has been made; for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"-- not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3}

Notice how inspiration declares Christ to be the Son? He is not created, he is not adopted or decreed into some role, He is a Son begotten in the express image of the Father’s person. Ask yourself when Christ was born in Bethlehem, was He born in the express image of His Father’s person? Absolutely not He was born a babe with a nature like ours. If He had come in all His Glory, Inspiration records we could not have borne the sight.

Notice this statement also:

Angels of God looked with amazement upon Christ, who took upon Himself the form of man and humbly united His divinity with humanity in order that He might minister to fallen man. It is a marvel among the heavenly angels. God has told us that He did do it, and we are to accept the Word of God just as it reads. And although we may try to reason in regard to our Creator, how long He has had existence, where evil first entered into our world, and all these things, we may reason about them until we fall down faint and exhausted with the research when there is yet an infinity beyond. {7BC 919.4}

This is for me, the most powerful statement from the pen of inspiration, for a more detailed commentary on this statement see the end of the study “In the Beginning”

In this passage the prophet is declaring there was a point when Christ had no existence but is beyond our finite comprehension.

Dear friend, you know this was penned in 1888, not long after Waggoner’s addresses at the GC. You know at least three times Waggoner stated Christ had a beginning “but it was so far back in the ages of eternity has to be far beyond, the grasp of the mind of man.” (see our booklet, “How shall we consider Christ?” And a few months later the prophet says almost identical words.

12. Supportive of the Church

Our statement on our website and literature states we are loyal of the SDA church in truth and love. We hold to all the principle points of our faith our church was built on by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. We acknowledge any new truths will only reinforce these established pillars, not tear them down.

That which was truth in the beginning is truth now. Although new and important truths appropriate for succeeding generations have been opened to the understanding, the present revealings do not contradict those of the past. Every new truth understood only makes more significant the old.

{RH, March 2, 1886 par. 6}

We have a burden for those in the church both the leaders and lay people. We are our brothers keeper and as the Lord commanded His disciples to tarry in Jerusalem. They finished the work Christ began (last 3 ½ years of Daniel 9 vs 27) They were to give the witness that Jesus was “Truly” the Son of God. Mk 15:39.

Although Gods people were in great apostasy, they heard and witnessed to the saving truths proclaimed. Many repented even many of the priests joined the faith and those who rejected sealed their faith. This could not have happened if the disciples fled Jerusalem before time. And this is the point as with the jews probation will close on this church. In fact it is this message rejected as it was then which will bring it to pass. But if we pull out now, who will give the message? How can the church be brought to descission If the people and leaders especially, do not hear the testimony? There are faithful ones in the church, how will they hear if we all leave?

Probation closed on the jews when they stopped their ears at Stephan’s testimony. Were they God’s church before the? Of coarse not! Acts 2:47 tells you who Gods church was.

It is not only false doctrine that makes a church part of Babylon. The prophet stated that the midnight cry was the greatest work since apostolic times. Yet the majority in the Millerite movement were Sunday keepers and trinitarian. The churches became fallen when they rejected the truth through the power of the Holy Spirit.

When the church rejects this testimony given through the power of the Holy Spirit She will become a liar.

1 Jn 2..22 she will deny the Father and the Son (note you cannot become a liar until you know the truth) then she will speak with the spirit of antichrist! And God’s people will be persecuted. Luke 21: 16,17 Isa 66: 5

This will be brought on by the faithful who as did the disciples bear witness to the truth in Jerusalem. We must not run ahead of the Lord, He is taking the reins into His own hands. God will set the timing and it will be purposed through the faithful ones who refused to leave before the testimony is given. For our Lord declared he that is of God heareth God’s words Jn 8:47

“And as the true light shines out upon these subjects, and is rejected by the mass, then condemnation will come upon them… solemn dreadful, swiftly approaching hour “ (Js White review and herald September 12 1854)

Where one Chooses to worship and fellowship is according to how God dictates to there conscience. Many cannot attend church any longer, particularly with children. We too often worship from house to house but we also visit the churches as the disciples attended the synagogues, to give literature and share the truth.

13. Denial of the 3rd angel and Mark of the Beast

Much could be written on this point, It is the trinitarian that rejects the truth who will worship the image and receive the mark of the beast. It is the trinitarian who while holding to Rome’s principle doctrine(the trinity), on which all her other doctrines stand. Who will one day forsake God’s Sabbath and accept Romes spurious sabbath.

It is the trinitarian who cannot give the call, fear God, give glory to him and worship him. For to the trinitarian this god Is a trinity. It is the same god of Rome, no matter how they claim otherwise. How can they call people out of Babylon when they worship the same god of Babylon?

For a more in depth study on this subject please see our new book, “The Elijah Message”

Also study on Ps 2:7 and 1 Jn 5:7 available soon.

Hope this has been of help.

God Bless,

From Restitution Ministries

From: "Adventist4Truth" <Adventist4Truth@gmail.comt>
To: "Restitution Ministries" <restitution_ministries@hotmail.com>
Subject: Restitution Ministries
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:41:34 -0800

Dear Brother Nader,

It would appear that your Ministry has a dear friend in Australia. Do you know of this brother? I have responded once, but I do not plan at the moment to respond again as he has a habit of keeping all my old emails and if I change my mind he likes to show what I said in the past, so I will not furnish him with more ammunition!

It would help me personally if you had any comments to make to rebautt his.

I did point out ti him that with his beliefs it would make nonsense of the Bible's account of Abraham and Isaac and God asking them to make such a sacrifice that He Himself would not be willing to make, even if we are His subjects and were created by Him. Another point that I said was that His beliefs essentially meant that God and His Son drew straws to see who would get the honor of dying for the human race.

Below is their LONGER email which I received today:

28 December 2005

This subject is a salvational issue beyond measure and I therefore ask you to review carefully this discussion.

This Godhead subject is going to surprise not a small number SDA's both mainline and separated and catch them completely unawares in the formation and worship of an image. The critical aspect of the Godhead doctrine is that Christ had an eternal preexistence - He was not born in eternity as all these neo gnostics are hypnotizing the minds of many.

We are all enjoyned to read the Bible for what it is saying - it states for example "God was manifested in the flesh." Not reading into the Bible concepts that will support our private interpretations.

It does not say the "Son of God was manisfest in the flesh."

Bob you have said "I wholeheartedly agree that Christ is and has always been God, I've gone down that alley with others who have written to the site". You have changed your mind by what you now say below - you now are stating Jesus was born in eternity and consequently a lesser god.

The Bible states He was; He always was - He could claim verily He was the "I AM".

The Bible states there were Two of Them in the beginning. Two Jehovah's. In other words, the omission of the very truth of Christ's preexistence is now a hearty AMEN to these various voices and heresies that He - our Saviour was born twice - once in eternity and once again at Bethlehem and is a lesser god.

The Word who was made flesh " was and always was, God. Isa 9:6 - The "child" = Christ - "the everlasting Father_ - Heb: "the Father
> of Eternity" He was the "everlasting Father - "Father of Eternity" [ Isa 9:6].

So - How then was Christ the literal Son born in eternity if He was to be prophetically identified otherwise as above in Isa 9:6 and defy Scripture?

To help clarify your memory about what we were saying about the Holy Spirit.

Christ was the "Eternal Spirit" as noted in Heb 9:14:- That Eternal Spirit was the Logos [John 1:1] who "being in the form of God; thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation and took upon Him the form of a slave (man)"... we can conclude safely there then was a "Heavenly Trio" since Bethlehem - Luke 1:35. The how and whyfore of the Holy Spirit remains veiled and a mystery to our understanding.

The following quote you shared with us back in May 2005...

"It is not essential for you to know and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, and the Comforter is the Holy Ghost, "the Spirit of truth, which the Father shall send in My name." "I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" [ John 14:16, 17]. This refers to the omnipresence of the Spirit of Christ, called the Comforter. Again Jesus says, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth is come, He will guide you into all truth" [ John 16:12, 13]. [14MR179.02]

Whereas for example: look over how Restitution M. have written up "the Heavenly Trio" article: you would think you are reading that there are Three Persons of the "Heavenly Trio" as Sr White stated.

That's Three Persons and not One God as they conclude. How in the world can we contradict the very quote about the "Heavenly Trio" and say there is only One God?

This One God concept of Restituion Ministries is Trinitarian heresy hocus pocus packaged in another form; it is saying that Jesus is a lesser god that He is alledged to have had a beginning, He was born in eternity this teaching is just denigrating His original, unborrowed and underived Identity.

When you read RM's other articles about the Holy Spirit for example - they go about and deny His Identity as to their very own Heavenly Trio article and include new concepts to fit their view on who is the Holy Spirit - and in so doing they remove the Identity of the Person of the Holy Spirit - and say that there is one God! Is not the Holy SPirit His own Identity?

Bob - this mumbo jumbo is human reasoning to what is sacred and Divine. This is not our language but the ministry your now hosting and defending. We ought to take our shoes off - for we are treading on holy ground.

ST.1894-05-28.001

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron." Before the last developments of the work of apostasy there will be a confusion of faith. There will not be clear and definite ideas concerning the mystery of God. One truth after another will be corrupted. "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." There are many who deny the preexistence of Christ, and therefore deny his divinity; they do not accept him as a personal Saviour. This is a total denial of Christ. He was the only-begotten Son of God, who was one with the Father from the beginning. By him the worlds were made."

Bob - Christ was the "only-begotten" by Incarnation and not prior for "In speaking of His pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him. (Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1900)

The "eternal God" is the Father. He never died.

Bob - ask Restitution Ministries to supply one Spirit of Prophecy quote where Sr White ever said Jesus was BORN IN ETERNITY?

MONOGENES - the studies on monogenes are not ours but that of an emminently qualified Bible theologian - Eldr Wm Grotheer.

The Church

We are supportive of the very warnings of the Bible and those of Sr White about the demise of the SDA Church and even as you have penned articles under your name. We seek to urgently alert the laymen and lay women who flounder in the apostasy. The SDA church is dying and will be the first to receive the wrath of God. [5T210] Yet will be energised by the enemy that a reformation is taking place.

We cannot support such a body which is now in abject apostasy or any who advocate to stay loyal to apostasy. The call is now as is found in Matt 25:6 - "Behold the Bridegroom cometh, go ye out ot a meeting of Him!" This call is a judgment call of heaven - she has been "weighed in the balances of the sanctuary and been found wanting! So who are you supporting?

Prophetically for our generation - The "times of the nations have closed". This is prophetic Present Truth which you previously said you came to the light and you apologized to us for your denial of this in the past and also of cutting us off and taking us off your website.

It behoves us to know that those walking in the light must make a call about any ministry in righteous judgment for this call of Matt 25 is a message not from us but from heaven. Any who believe they can remain in Adventism and be effective - Sr White says as does the Bible they will become like teh whore she really is and be not effective as the call in Matt 25 comes from outside of the abominations.

Therefore, any comment about the sincerety of individual motives who say they are in total support of the church means they deny apostasy exists and to think they can have some sort of influence against the apostasy which they point to is in defiance of the message for today to the church and will sadly reap the wrath of what God's message is about.

It is so serious - - - this is a matter of - - - LIFE AND DEATH!

Elijah never once equivocated over the message he was given to bestow. Should we?

We would not be making such a heartfelt plea on something peripheral.

Looking forward to your response after you review this and the enclosures of what was discussed back in May.

Bob -

Whenever heresy is being shared as legitimate truth; we will speak forth whether the heavens may fall. To those who have not studied this out from their own BIble - there can only be shame upon them to not know what the

Bible states.

Even when others accuse us of judging the apparent merits of others - - - this is not the point but the issue is - simply Truth. This attitude of apparent judging is very strong in and out of the church and ultimately fails the test of the "fruits" - see - Eph 5:9.

We would kindly suggest you take some time to refer to the following series of studies on the Godhead -

http://www.adventistlaymen.com/THE%20GODHEAD%20Expositions%20by%20Wm.%20H.%20Grotheer.htm

We need to be apprised about the Trinity heresy - however, within this Godhead heresy of Sherlene Turner, Allen Stump, David Clayton and others, is the strong denial of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

They have many ideas about Him being "brought" forth and "begotten" none which strengthen He who was in the beginning - God. A basic failure of the appreciation of the "decree" of Psa 2:7. To worship other than He who is a God is a violation of the Law!

The issue is not what we believe and hold dear - for we can also think we hold something dear when it is a complete falacy to truth. The Scriptures, Jesus said, cannot be broken.

This is a doctrinal situation and it is not about our personally held beliefs; if it cannot be proven from the Scriptures and substantiated fromt the Writings then we would shut our mouths - but the problem remains for many as to what constitutes a denial of the Third Angel, in relation to worship of God - Sherlene,

Clayton Stump have many to beleive Jesus is a lesser God and any indidivual who has casual inkling of the Third Angel knows the outcome of such a denial is an "image" to the "Mark of the Beast".

Hopeing you take some time to afford some study from the hperlink attached.

God Bless

Bob