Below, are mostly one-sided exchanges that a contributor, JC, has sent in that he has had on a discussion board site involving atheists and Christians...and we wonder why atheists choose to not believe in a loving God. You will see why I say this towards the end...there may be some repetition in a few areas.

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord and he landed high and dry. In the Noah story we are given proof positive of both the holy Spirit of God at work as well as His grace already provided through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Noah and family, having the holy Spirit of God in their lives, were sealed and thereby saved from destruction. God's grace was available unto all mankind until the moment the door to salvation was closed by an unseen hand.

The comparison with the last day scenario is astounding for the end of all things is at hand. No one will be exempt from His judgment regardless of belief. Mere belief such judgment was to come upon the world did not save Noah. He had to do something about it. Whether we have 20 years or 120 years, I cannot speculate. What does become apparent, however, is during the 120 years the population had in Noah's day they appear to have drifted farther away from his message of salvation vs. being drawn closer to it to the point they had not only renounced God, they had forgotten Him altogether.

Can I prove the story of Noah? No more than I can prove Jesus is coming back. I base my faith upon the Law and the Testimony. I believe the ark continues to rot right where it landed. I believe the Ark of the Covenant continues to reside right where Jeremiah hid it, safe with the stone tablets, pot of manna and Aaron's rod that budded contained therein. I believe these objects are as real and present in earth today as is the garden in Eden. Perhaps it is sort of like a math equation. Find Noah's ark and the Ark of the Covenant and you will discover the garden of God.

Still, it all boils down to faith. We are denied access to the garden of God until the moment we see Jesus and hear Him say; Come ye blessed of my Father. Enter in at the straight gate. Then, just as it was in the day of Noah, it will be too late to clean up our heart for the unrepentant will be denied access. Just as in the day of the fall the disobedient were evicted from the garden, the day of the Lord will be a return to Eden and eternal life as God has designed it to be from the beginning. The day of the fall was a horrible awakening for our first parents. The day of the Lord will be both great and awful. It will be a quickening of Spirit.

As one might say; it will be the day the cherubim are finally relieved of their duty and we get to shake their hands... jc

God renewed His Covenant in Christ just as He renewed His Covenant with Abraham in Moses. When Moses sought out God a second time after apparent failure his first time before Pharaoh to ask Him what was up with putting him in front of the king when in promising to deliver He had not delivered at all, God said; "Now you will see what I will do". It was unto Moses that God revealed His name for the first time to man. To Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He had been known only as God Almighty.

A task had been placed in his path that he felt was much too great for him. I don't know who Moses had in mind to take his place but he expressed his feeling before the Lord that perhaps He should send another. Being as I believe we are created in God's image, I also believe He has emotions similar to me. Here God displayed some of that emotion when He replied; "Who made your mouth"? Right about then Aaron entered the story. God said; “Aaron will be your mouth and you will be as a god before the king. Now take this rod and go.”

As the avenging angel passed over the land those spared were separated only by the blood of the lamb according to the commandment. Those of the Egyptians who cared enough to hearken to the God of Israel were spared also. We are told a multitude of them came out of Egypt that night. That day was established a memorial of the deliverance to be observed throughout their generations and all who participated of the foreigners who joined their ranks fell under the same covenant. The stranger became as one that was born in the land so that One law was for the homeborn and unto the stranger who journeyed with them. Separate laws were not practiced among the people based on varying viewpoints, nationality or upbringing. Rather, One Law. That One law united them as one people for God has a people.

The parallels between the exodus and the last days are astounding. While Joseph was yet alive there was peace, safety and plenty throughout the land. Then came oppression, affliction and slavery followed by plagues. Then deliverance. We are promised those having the seal of God in their forehead and in their hand will be not only spared the plagues, but delivered. We must do more than simply believe. We have to put our belief into practice. Not only that, we must be correct in so doing. Smearing blood on one doorpost only was not enough to escape death that night. I'm fairly certain there were plenty of folk in Egypt by then who believed in the God of Israel for they had witnessed first hand the destruction of their land that could be explained only by the hand of God at work. Pharaoh, himself, begged Moses for a blessing as he was throwing him out of his land. It was too late then for it was all over but the crying.

So, was grace available in the time of Moses? Yes! How so? By the death of Christ as professed by the people in the shed blood of the lamb. Did the people have to do something to obtain said grace? You bet they did for anyone whose faith was not in the Word of the God of Israel suffered death in the home that night from the king on the throne to the prisoner in the dungeon.

Why did Christ die? Before He gave up the Ghost He told us what to do if we loved Him. One Law for one people. I dare not tempt God's emotions by attempting to dance around His Holy, Everlasting Law. A Law placed in the heart of Eden in the beginning. His Law is a garden of love. In it there are two trees. One is obedience. The other is disobedience. Today we are denied access to the garden but those trees still stand right where He placed them in the beginning... jc

The New Covenant has nothing to do with God's Law aside from magnifying It. Recall the conversation with Nicodemus. He asked Christ; "How can these things be"? And the response of Jesus; "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?” That, my friend, was a reprimand. Like the two on the road to Emmaus after the resurrection, Nicodemus was rebuked for his lack of knowledge in Scripture.

So, then, regarding the parable of the great supper, what was Christ's commentary at the end of the parable? "Salt is good; but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned"? And, from the Sermon on the Mount; "Ye are the salt of the earth; but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men ... Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled".

At the last supper; "For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come".

I surely cannot save myself any more than I can raise my mother from the dead. Nor have I ever had opportunity to save myself. I can approach the Father only through the blood of Jesus. The New Covenant is His shed blood shed for me. The Old Covenant was the blood of bulls and goats. "This cup is the new testament in my blood". No more animal sacrificing. The Lamb of God has been offered up. Drinking of the cup of the blood of Jesus has everything to do with walking in the commandment of God, His Father. It has always been about the Law of God. For It Christ had to die. Else, God might have simply forgiven mankind by a wave of His hand. Christ was a Champion for His Father's Law and so am I.

I shall not keep my Lord on the Cross. By choosing to make void the Law of His Father, I do just that. "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than for one tittle of the law to fail".

Christ had no authority to tamper with His Father's Law. What He spoke was given Him of above. You are correct in your assumption I cannot keep the Law perfectly. No man, with the exception of Enoch, Elijah and Christ has done that since the garden dwelling in Eden. The ministers of fire continue to guard the gate thereof until the quickening at the second coming. Having accepted Christ's Offering for me, all I can do is trust and obey through my faith in Jesus.

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness"?

Abraham had the gospel of Jesus and kept God's Law. The Testimony of Jesus is "worship God". To the Law and to the Testimony... jc

If what you seem to suggest, in questioning my adherence to God's Law, is to free myself of It, allow me to be clear in that I have indeed freed myself of indoctrination. I came to the realization just last year that God does not have a religion nor did Christ come here to establish one. Do not confuse my personal rejection of religion with rejecting God's Word. His Word tells me nowhere to lose His Law. On the contrary, He says; "Keep My commandments". I'm going deep with keep.

In the beginning God placed the man He had made in the Garden to dress and "keep" It. He charged His creation, both man and animals, to be fruitful and multiply in the earth. The world in Adam's day was one big, luscious garden. This big, blue ball was the garden of the Lord. He called it Earth, not Eden. The first time we see Eden in Scripture, it just pops up like a pop-up ad. God named the dry land Earth on the third day. Eden pops up in the next verse after the man became a living soul. So we have a garden and we have Eden but we do not have a garden called Eden. We have a garden in Eden. Eden appears to be the first named place in a new world, the whole of which was a garden.

When Abraham and Lot split up, Lot beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere as the garden of the Lord. This being after the flood, suggests that, before the destruction of the earth the first time, all the land was as the garden of the Lord. It was paradise.

So then, why would God plant a garden within a garden unless it be for a place for Him to dwell with the man? Why would Cherubim be placed to keep the way of the tree of life unless this garden was a spiritual place? Sin affected the whole earth and all the earth was cursed as a result of the fall. Why was Abel killing his prize lambs as an offering before the Lord unless it be for an atonement for sin? And what is sin? Sin is the transgression of the Law.

What I am saying is that we were made with the Law of God, which is a Law of love, within our very core existence. It did not have to be defined for it was placed in the heart and soul of man and man was made perfect. This is the Law of our Creator. It is not to be confused with the laws of Moses. Yes, many laws were given later and commanded to be followed after sin and up to the Cross. These same laws fell away at the Cross once the Lamb of God was slain. This includes the sacrificing of animals such as Abel was doing when he was killed. I do not understand Abel, being the lover of animals he was, to have been killing animals just to give God a gift. Else, it would appear to me to have been an arbitrary judgment on the part of God to have accepted Abel's offering and rejected Cain's. Cain was disobedient to the Lord and his countenance fell. God established this ritual in order for man to know and understand that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

These sacrificial laws and ceremonies in no way, however, changed the Law of God. Yes, we must believe on Christ and accept His offering in order to obtain salvation. Adam and Eve had to do this. Their act of killing an innocent lamb was a profession of their faith in the Promise of the Lamb of God. A Promise personally given to them by God. Yes, Jesus might have changed something about His Father's Law had He been so inclined but no, He did not, for it was not the will of His Father that His Law be changed. His power and authority came from above. He came here not to do His own will but that of the Father. His words were not His but that of the Father, Who sent Him.

So no, I do not keep all these laws that fell away, which Christ fulfilled at His death nor do I attempt to keep them. It may even be sacrilegious to do so, I don't know. For me, having accepted Christ into my life is enough. I rely on His Spirit and that of the Father to guide me.

I do my best, however, to keep God's Law as I believe we would all do well to do. The first four precepts of His Law direct our love and devotion to Him. The last six to our fellow man. The old expression, "written in stone", certainly seems to apply here but no, I reject the idea the first time we are made aware of this Law was at Sinai and that any obligation to live in It ended at the Cross. Can I keep It perfectly? Of course not. I don't know there is a man alive who can. There may be a few. My point is I do not strive to keep His Law for the sole purpose of earning my own salvation. I do it as an expression of my love and respect for Him and toward my fellow man. In striving to save myself, the offering of Jesus is forfeited. Rather, I strive to be obedient unto God and pray to be given strength to continue to grow in my relationship with my Lord.

God's Law, written in stone, is being "kept" somewhere in the world in a safe place waiting to be discovered. I know it's just a piece of rock in a gold chest in its physical shape. It resides in my heart, however, in its spiritual form awaiting the day I too, can walk with God in the cool of the day... jc

[Comment by QM]

Adam and Eve did not sacrifice a lamb... God did. And God provided the sacrifice for Abraham, and makes clear throughout Moses and the prophets that each firstborn belonged to God in the first place, so every sacrifice was just giving back to God what was already His. That is, that they recognized their very lives came from God and they had nothing to offer Him.

The cattle on a thousand hills are mine, says the Lord.

So you think that you are profiting God somehow by coming back to Him? Don't you remember that those who attend the banquet were driven in? If you were not driven in, then you are not pursuing righteousness by faith, you are striving for it by works.

If you want to be in Christ, then worship God in that God saved you even when the last thing you wanted was to be saved. If you are saved then you are saved by grace through faith which is a gift (not earned! You didn't even earn it by believing, belief itself was a gift!)

Here is my response. Tell me if you can "feel the love"?

I think the "key" may lay in developing and having a relationship with God, no matter at what point in one's life this may "come about". Is it possible to turn one's back on God after having accepted the Offering of His Son and thereby lose one's salvation? I believe so. That would also lead me to believe that yes, it is absolutely within the scope of God to receive one back into the fold, so to speak, following repentance. The Elijah message comes to mind here as does the story of the prodigal son.

In other words, this Christian doctrine of "once saved, always saved" does not appear to hold water for me. There are members among us here, who confess openly to having once been a "believer". Is it up to our own "righteous judgment" to admonish them as having never been "saved" in the first place?

I have confessed Jesus Christ as my Lord. I have always believed He emptied Himself of all glory and power He had with His Father to come here and live the life He did. For most of my life I was under the master deception that He was God. Now, however, I understand that He deflected all power, glory, wisdom and honor to God, Master of the universe. I understand the part Christ played (if you will allow that, which I sort of doubt you will) in the conflict of the ages of this world places Him, by the Father, as future King of kings and Lord of lords of the redeemed of this world and this world only. A time, after which, He will also, Himself, be subject unto Him, Who put all things under Him that God may be All in all.

So, here I confess that yes, I do believe in Jesus and yes, I do believe in God. I have received into my heart the Spirit of the Two. I cannot say I was driven to Jesus. I believe it would be more accurate to say I invited Him to come into my heart. How so? By not only hearing, but listening to His Still, Small Voice. My faith came about by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

So, now what? Do I act upon it? Yes. How so? By doing the Word of God. Else, what is that? Do I sit around now and wait for Jesus to come back? Do I condemn my fellow man for not perceiving the Word as do I? No. I live by Example and present my life as an open book for my brother and sister to read.

Yes, the cattle on a thousand hills are the Lord's. So is all the silver and all the gold and all the oil in the earth. It all belongs to He, Who made it. Eye hath not seen nor ear heard what awaits me in the Kingdom of God. While I have received the glorious Promise of salvation, I choose to act upon said Grace and thereby so receive It.

Yes, I have arrived at the banquet. Yes, I have been handed (gifted) a wedding garment. Now what? Do I toss It aside, hand It to another guest (who may or may not have been "driven" in), or do I put It on and go inside? What's wrong with my "holy" blue jeans and tee shirt? They are the style of the day. I may have shown up looking very GQ, QM. What is that? Is that going to impress my Host in that day?..

By faith Abraham offered up his son, the son of promise, and yes, the Lord did provide. God doesn't need anything I have to offer today. All He wants is my heart turned over to Him. The Offering has been made once and for all... jc

Webmaster's Note — As Followers of Christ, we need to be cognizant that atheists do not believe in God, much less in His 'book of fairly tales', it is only through His Spirit, working through us, that we can reach these fine folks, who in most cases once believed in God and His holy Son, but due to circumstances in each of their lives, it became easier to doubt that there is a God in heaven looking after their needs. In most, if not every case. this belief can be attributed to something that was said or done by a Christian. This is what is being conveyed by the exchanges between a Christian and JC. No kudos necessary for JC, it is an honor to him to be able to enrich his own life by knowing these atheists; just be aware that we are being watched and observed by more than holy angels.

What is being made evident to me, is that even when dealing with Christians that know of God and His Son, how evident am I making that to others? Do I have to abide by the rules of a Church or practice Ellenisms to be recognized as a true child of God? What imprint am I leaving behind? Do I treat everyone I know or meet with the love and kindness that I would enjoy receiving or is it only to be a hope that I too may receive? I, personally, am much happier being called a 'Follower of Christ' than a mere Christian! Which begs the question, which Church is the true Christian church? Just take a look around and you will understand why this question needs to be asked.

Do we understand the concept why Christ is depicted as a shepherd looking for His lost sheep? Let us strive to avoid being 'sheeple'.

Do we, as Christians, have a higher authority which allows us to judge or pass judgment on those that do not believe as us? Or, are we simply asked to love others as we would wish to be love? Does not this Commandment far encompass as well as surpass the Great Ten? In other words, what good does it do us to be observant of the Law and not love God or His created beings?

Having been profoundly and subtly deceived by a church all of my life, the best that I can do is to say, do not pass judgment unless you wish to have judgment passed on you! Can I still be wrong? Of course, but the more I study and compare with what the Scriptures say, the more I am reassured that I AM on the right path.

Always keep in mind that God does not have a religion, He has a People!

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