Comparing the LAW to GRACE

 

Hi Bob,

I just read Brian's latest post. I have only a couple of questions but, the first and foremost is this; Was Sabbath kept in Eden? Granted, there was no Sabbath in earth when man was created but, he was born into it, so to speak, as he spent his first full day in it, yes? Agreed, God's only "command" to His new creation was to dress and keep the garden and avoid the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I understand we, as Sabbath keepers, assume it was kept before the fall. If it could be proven to me scripturally the Sabbath was not kept in Eden, I would be persuaded to change my belief. Being, however, that it is mentioned at the close of creation and blessed and sanctified by God causes me to believe it is an important aspect of His moral Law. I do believe His Word is everlasting. That is, in both directions of eternity. Now, while this is not in Scripture either,

I also believe He has a Divine Blueprint for creation. That is to say, I believe all worlds containing intelligent life were created after the fashion of this one and that human life on the other worlds is designed in His image and that of the Son. I know our God loves variety but I don't by Hollywood's version of alien life...

It was stated in the article that the Mosaic Law is weak because it is dependent on man's ability and stands in contrast to the grace of God as now manifested in the coming of Christ.
How strong must a man be to abide in said Law? What is so difficult about resting on the Lord's Day? I single out the fourth commandment, of course, as it is the only one of the nine claimed by man to be unconfirmed in the NT. Also, has there been a temporary interruption of Sabbath keeping?

I ask this because I clearly understand Scripture to state we will come together in heaven from one Sabbath to another. Sometimes I feel man puts too much stock in the grace of God. Don't get me wrong, I understand God's grace to be everything but to put aside His moral Law in order to accept His grace seems to miss the mark of said grace. Grace, it seems, only came about as a result of sin and what is sin? Sin is the transgression of the Law. That is to say, Bob, I believe the moral Law existed before grace, just to be clear, because before sin there was no need for grace. Everything was perfect.
As for the Sabbath in the NT, what of John's statement; "I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day"? Seems to me God has always had a day. Jesus kept it and apparently the apostles did as well. As for Paul, Acts 17 and 18 is all about Paul reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath for a year and a half "as his manner was"...
How do we love God, Bob? How do we know God? We don't but we do know Jesus. Was it not His custom also to set aside the Sabbath? Christ spent a lot of time on His knees.
It was stated in the letter; "We have Christ's righteousness so the Law can't condemn us". To that I can only say that as long as we are in the Law in heart, mind and spirit we are in the righteousness of Christ and have no fear of condemnation. That is not to be confused with living in the Law in order to receive Christ's righteousness. I'm not a thief because I understand the harm it brings to the victim of theft. To refrain from stealing only out of fear of possible jail time would still place me in violation of the Law if I were really a thief at heart. Same with lusting after a woman. So you see, by bringing Christ into my heart I can live in the Law of His Father and experience the true joy of doing so. Without Christ the Law would have little meaning.
Is it scriptural to say that Christ died in our place? What does that mean when everybody dies? If the wages of sin is death and all have sinned this cannot mean Christ died so we would not die. It was said that the penalty the Law exercised was paid and God's grace brings us salvation. As I said above, before sin entered there was no need for grace. It is the grace of God that enables us to live in the Law as it should be lived. Not followed for the sake of being a good little boy, but lived. An Israelite indeed. Real obedience in its pure, unadulterated form. Obedience out of love for our Maker and respect for the Gift of His Lamb.
So then, did Christ die to free us from His Father's Law?..

All blessings,
jc


Hi John,

I am wondering if you are seeing the real or BIG picture that Brian has been trying to convey to me? As an ex SDA I feel that you and I share many similar qualities. I am starting to see and understand what Brian is writing, but it hasn’t been easy with my past SDA training...I have to wonder if perhaps you may be finding yourself in the same boat?

You keep talking about a ‘moral’ law. Yet like another friend likes to call it, there is another law that supercedes that ‘moral’ law. He calls it the ‘‘royal’’ law which no one on this earth can fully understand; the best that we can do on this earth is to exemplify it by Christ’’s own example. I don’’t think I need to spell out the 4-letter word that this ‘‘royal’’ law surrounds.

As I have been trying to show on the site. The Sabbath is not nor has it ever been the ‘‘Seal of God’’. That concept is very hard for an avowed SDA to comprehend, especially if that person still espouses Ellen White’’s writings...something will have to either change or go.
Another point that needs to be brought out is to look at the 10 Commandments and try to reason how any ONE of them could stand alone as that ‘Seal of God’. Here is an example of how this law may be ‘‘moral’’ yet it is imperfect:

"How SDA's do the Sabbath, especially the Historics, is not where it is, though it is the right thing to do, (Honoring your parents)as is honoring God, plus there are cases that one can not honor their human mother and/or father, and must distance themselves from one or both (it is as divorce and re-marriage, there is a balance) This person pondered what I said , and now looks at all that promotion and millions spent on distributing pieces of various anti-Sunday literature, billboards and such, and never mentioning the 4 letter word LOVE as the real and complete seal, as really a waste of effort, time, money, etc. by making such their total and/or major work. The explanation of the true Sabbath and the pagan change, etc, will come the persons way without it being pushed if and when they are a true seeker."

Try putting each of the 10 Commandments by itself in a position by which it can be the ‘‘Seal of God’ then please tell me in which case it is the ‘royal’ law all by itself. It simply cannot be done ...AND THAT IS WHAT BRIAN is telling us.

You see John, the Sabbath is NOT a salvational issue! Study this point very carefully. Keeping and honoring the Sabbath is still a WORKS problem. I think that once this idea is clarified in your mind the rest will be easier to see.

I personally think that you are making a bigger issue of the Sabbath than God intended us to make of it. In fact, I would put the 1st Commandment as Chief among them all...perhaps that is what it is listed as the FIRST Commandment! I have to wonder if there is s reason why the Sabbath commandment was made the LAST among the moral laws?

One reason why I no longer see the Sabbath as a salvational issue is because heaven will contain many, many individuals that will never have kept the seventh-day Sabbath holy. So, if this is true and I know that you believe this to be so, is it a SALVATIONAL ISSUE? It doesn't make a difference if the Sabbath will be kept in heaven, John. Christ's grace will look past this. This is the very point that I believe you are missing.

Ask yourself this question, is there EVER an occasion where an individual that keeps the Sabbath holy would be sinless in purchasing food for a hungry child, then take this question and keep playing it out to yourself? Did Christ adequately follow this example for Himself and His disciples when they were chaffing wheat in the field? Are we going to nick pick between chaffing and purchasing or picking fruit off a tree? Obviously in Christ’’s case, someone had to till and plant the field, correct?

What I am trying to point out is that you cannot just take a position and say it is not based on WORKS. It seems to ne impossible to do anything without doing it by WORKS, yet, I feel that Christ, through the writings of Paul is telling us ALL that it is possible and that is what a Salvational issue is based on.
Remember, all this thinking did not just come naturally to Paul, he had to spend 3 years in Arabia, much as John the Baptist had to do to become a part of this special inside group that Christ designed to explain what His method of LOVE really signified.

I think now that the main issue differring between our way of seeing this issue is whether or not we are including the Sabbath as a part of His 'royal' law? And I would say that this goes without comment. Yet as George brought out to me, there are still exemptions that be made in the Ten Commandments and I believe that in God's law of LOVE, no excemptions are possible or can be made. The whole point of GRACE is that Christ's sacrifice covers ALL sin...No Exceptions!

I also know that I am the least knowledgeable on Christ's Grace. Were there a thousand inputs on this we would have probably a thousand different and relevant opinions!

I pray that you will be able to se this from a another point of view and that you will be blessed by it.

Bob