Untitled Document

To Separate Or Not To Separate From The Corporate Structure

August 17, 2004

Another Church you can put on your list where the traditional Bible Truths as laid out by the early Adventist Pioneers is:

My name is Dwayne Lemon, and I am a member of 1st Lithonia of Seventh Day Adventists
Located at: 3533 RAGSDALE RD LITHONIA GA 30038

Our Bible study groups are held at the church on Sabbath afternoons at 5:30 pm to 7:00 pm.

We uplift the Bible ALONE!!!!!!!! For this is what the servant of the Lord Counsels us to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We reference the Counsels (Spirit of Prophecy) quite often to assist us in lifting up of the scriptures, and we have been tremendously blessed.

Not all of God’s Churches in the Organization have apostatized. There are still a faithful few who are holding up the banner of God’s Word, and this church is one of many.

May God Bless you as you make known to the hearts and minds of men and women that the “Truth is Still Marching On”

-----Original Message-----
From: Adventist4Truth [mailto:Adventist4Truth@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 11:52 PM
To: Dwayne Lemon
Subject: Re: Another Church

Dear brother Dwayne,

Thank you for writing to Adventist4Truth and requesting to be added to the list of Historically minded churches. I found your nessage intriguing and I would like to ask a couple of questions or point out some concerns.Is the Bible study that you were writing about considered your Worship time?

If so, why would you have it what most would consider late Sabbath afternoon or evening? Depending on the time of the year, that study time would fall smack into Sunday, if viewed in the same manner that the Bible would describe it.

I also found curious this statement that you made:

"Not all of God's Churches in the Organization have apostatized. There are still a faithful few who are holding up the banner of God's Word, and this church is one of many."

How would your statement stand up with 4T 210.4 ?? Do you or your group believe in Corprate Responsibility? The Bible speaks in several places of corporate responsibility, which means that the membership is held responsible for the corporate actions of the group that they are a member of. In the same way that labors are expected to go on strike or follow the party line as members of a political party or labor union, the same principle applies with church membership, when the church as a whole goes against God's will.

Biblical examples of this can be found in Numbers 16. Moses specificallytold the people to separate hemselves from Korah, Dathan and Abiram or suffer the consequences. Korah's own family decided to heed Moses' warning and separated themselves from Korah (see Number 26:10-11).

We also have the experience of Achan in Joshua 7. Why were 36 men, who had no part in the sin of Achan, killed when they went up to fight against Ai??

And what did Jeremiah tell his king and leaders of his city would happen to them if the king were to kill him? See Jeremiah 26.

How many times have you heard a pastor preach on Ezekiel 21:1-5 ??

Remember brother, the devil doesn't care if you keep 99% of the 10 Commandments, as long as you know that you are breaking 1% and shrugging your shoulders about it.

I hope and pray that you will seriously consider these points, especially if you are in a leadership position.

Bob

Bob De La Torre
VISIT<http://www.adventist4truth.com> or <www.A4T.org>

August 18, 2004

During the summer time hear in Atlanta, the sun sets about 8pm. I believe you are referring to the "Divine Hour" when you say "Worship Time". If so, then we do not have our Bible Study during Divine hour which is typically starting at 11am and ends at 1pm.

Secondly, The statement from 4T pg.210;4 points out a true fact that if the headquarters is corrupt then the churches in it’s branches throughout the world become corrupt.

I ask you, and please be very clear, Do we have corrupt leaders within our conference or is the entire conference corrupt.

Make sure you answer carefully and wisely , and most importantly factually. I have gone through these discussions and have read many interpretations of quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy, and the Bible supposedly stating that the Organization will fall and become Babylon.

Based off of my studies of the Word of God and the Spirit of Prophecy, as well as much prayer and counsel from those Independent of the Organization as well as those Associated with the Organization, I can say with great conviction that the Structure has great Apostasy taking place amongst many of our leaders, but this Movement is not nor will not be Babylon as spoken in Rev. 14, 17, & 18. It is in a Lukewarm state as spoken of by Rev. 3;14-22. These texts explain what’s going on in our church today.

As to your reference to the keeping of 99% of the Commandments, I take that as a very deep statement and would like for you to expound and be specific on what you mean by that.

I’m not saying you are one, but I’ve heard a lot of Fanatical individuals state things that supposedly are tests of Faith for the church, that are not and never once mentioned as such by the Spirit of Prophecy.

I also believe that we should not base our doctrinal stands on what the Spirit of Prophecy says for we were counseled not to do such a thing. The Bible and the Bible only is our rule of faith. In other words I have had individuals try to say that EGW prophesied that the Organized body of SDA’s will become Babylon, yet if I ask them to prove it Biblically they cannot. THAT’S A HUGE PROBLEM!!!!!!!

The servant of the Lord has made it clear that her writings bring no new light to the table. She only comments on that which has been written. Therefore for someone to successfully teach that the church has become Babylon, they must prove it Biblically. Period.

We have been given counsel on how to deal with the apostasy of our leaders and many individuals including myself are following that counsel.

I hope this answers your questions and I hope that 1st Lithonia of SDA will be allowed on your list and you are more than welcome to come and visit us anytime. Also, feel free to call me if you’d like to further these discussions at 770-274-9537. Or you can reply and converse through e-mail if you so choose.

Until then stay strong and stay truthful in all that you do.

God Bless.

August 18, 2004

Dear brother Dwayne,

Thank you for clarifying the Bible Study meeting time. The reason I asked about that was because you wanted to be listed on the site and the only meeting time you furnished was that evening one, and I would not see a problem with that study ime regardless what season it was.

On the other issue, I would have to say I would go down a different path. You see, we have history to look back on. It has not happened that way in history and the Bible makes it clear in Eccl. that history repeats itself. God's true people have always had to be distinct and separate.

Isaiah 9:16 clearly tell us that we are corrupted be the leadership, but brother, what does it say will happen to it's members? That's why I pointed out Exe. 21:1-5. Has anyone ever preached on that passage to your recollection?

How can you differentiate between this statement:

Is the Church in Apostasy? or Is there Apostasy in the Church?

How do you think Christ would answer that question? That's the ONLY standard that we have to consider. Any other standard leaves us out of heaven.

The same rule has to apply to the Church as would apply to a worker that is a member of a Labor Union. As a member, whether you are on the picket line or not, you are still on strike... The examples that I pointed out to you from the Bible speak specifically of Corporate Responsibility. This responsibility goes in both directions, it addresses the leadership's role as well as the member's role.

God's true Church is not the SDA Church, even though it was designed to be in the same way that the Hewish Church was esigned tobe God's True people. Keep in mind that the SOP tells us that the Eleventh Hour Workers will come from utter darkness and Ithink that may mean that they may make up the majority of the 144,000. I also believe that many SDAs (by faith or belief) will be among those that are martyred.

If you are comfortable with giving the Conference your tithes and seeing them use it to do ungodly things, like taking your brothers and sisters to court or making ecumenical alliances, then all I can say is that I have raised the issue before you. Or perhaps, one day your members decide to separate and wish to keep the church building which they built and paid for...see what will happen to the locks on your church's doors. That just occurred in Houston.

Obviously, you have studied this issue already and have made a choice that you are comfortable with. That's where you and I differ.

What I meant by the 99% comment is very simple and is a concept that you would hear in many of the earlier evangelistic series held by the likes of Joe Crews or Stanley Harris.... The devil doesn't care if you keep the whole law as long as he can make you compromise in one small area. Christ wants a total, 100% surrender. If that's fanaticism, then I'm a fanatic!

Did Jesus Christ separate and start a new movement?

May God bless you brother,
Bob

August 18, 2004

As mentioned before I have dealt with this subject before and I have not chosen a stance that is comfortable, but Biblical and right in line with the SOP. (Please do not get the two mixed up)

Remember that though there are some statements in scripture that many try to apply to the SDA church today, God is so good that there are other scriptures to counter many of these theories and the SOP gives even clearer counsel on this subject.

The problem is we begin weighing the church upon our human scales of thinking and reasoning. The points you bring up are thought provoking, but again they have been dealt with. God has given us clear counsel on how to deal with these issues through the scriptures and the SOP. Even the Tithe issue has been dealt with through the SOP. EGW is even bold enough to point out that even if we speculate the Tithe was being misused, she instructs us on how to deal with this.

(By the way I have references to back up everything I'm saying. Right now I am assuming that you've been through these studies as well and are familiar with the points that I'm referencing. If anything I’m just refreshing your memory. However, if you need any reference for any point I’ve made, please feel free to ask.)

Another discovery that the SOP talks about are people who separate from the church and take pride in their small independent movements and there is just as much confusion in these movements as there is in the Organized body.

Again we have been given specific counsel on how to deal with the issues in our church today.

You can say the church has Apostatized in whole and become Babylon if you choose, but Isaiah says "To the Law & To The Testimony, if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them" Period.

I joined this movement 13 years ago, and I fell in love with the Truth as it is in Jesus. That Love has never been stronger. I have spoken with the leadership of Church at Atlanta (amongst many other separate groups)and had them over my house to discuss this issue, and it was nothing more than a night of manipulating the writings of God servant and applying scriptures to issues that had no true connection with the subject at hand.

This is what I'm tired of. If we are going to come with it, let's come correct. I still love the Truth and if the Truth is that the Organized Body of SDA has fallen and become Babylon, I will preach it to the mountain tops, and I mean it. I have yet seen anyone truly prove it especially from scripture. The best I've seen is the attempt to make the Servant of the Lord say something she never said. Which is VERY WEAK!!!!

I believe Jesus Christ came in the fulfillment of prophecy to continue the movement that was spoken of in prophecy years before His Virgin Birth. (I know you may be saying “what does he mean by that. But that’s precisely what I want you to do is think about the statement & search the scriptures)

If you believe God has enlightened you to enlighten me on this subject, you can feel free to share your knowledge with me. However, all I ask is that you let your teachings be Biblical and you can certainly use the SOP to support your biblical argument.

God Bless.

August 19, 2004

Brother Dwayne,

As I recall, you were the one that asked to be included in my listing. Had you taken a moment to look at the listings, you would have seen that the vast majority if not all are separated bretheren.

From my first email, all I have presented has been Biblical Truths. I do not do the judging nor the weighing in the balances. I read my Bible and the Testimonies and I use the senses that God has given to me to discern what my best choice should be. You have not supported your beliefs a single time, yet that is all you write about. Eviddently you believe that God is too good to do the things He weites about in Scripture, as I tried to point out in Ezekiel 21.

I do hope that God will give you the light you need in time. The SOP also says that NOT one in twenty that are on the Church records will make it to heaven ... and that was written before the turn of the 20th century ... I wonder what those numbers would be today ... in your church? (see LDE 172.1) [no offense meant, but I'm sure your church would have to be included in her statement]

If you were to do a little more digging through this website, many of your unanswered questions would be answered.

Thank you for stopping by and visiting.
Bob

August 19, 2004

As I recall your site mentions Adventist 4 Truth. Meaning you are a Seventh Day Adventist standing for the Truth. If this is true, then that's why I wanted to be added to your list.

You have never been to any of the studies that we have done at 1st Lithonia and if you have, you would have seen that we teach the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth as it is in Jesus.

I have read Ezekiel 21;1-5 and I have an understanding of what the text is saying, but you obviously have a point you are trying to make. So feel free to make it.

All of the Bible texts you sent thus far do not support the separation that brethren like yourself have done with the Organized body. The accusations that are made on sites like yours in many cases are not true, pre-conceived judgements, and some facts as well.

However, we have been given specific counsel on how to deal with even the factual Apostasy that has taken place in our movement. The sins that took place in Israel’s time were being committed in EGW day yet she never left the church, she reproved the sin and the leaders committing the sin and trusted God to remove whoever needed to be removed. And God proved himself faithful.

As mentioned before, the brethren who have separated from the Organized Body of believers, have just as much confusion in doctrine as well as the practice thereof. You have the Shepherd’s Rod, Brimsmead, Branch Davidians, & other groups. And the one thing they seem to have in common is that they all disagree with each other on what the standard of the church is and how it should be enforced in the church and taught to the masses.

I’ve asked individuals if the church of prophecy spoken of in Rev. 12 & 14 was at anytime the Organized Body of SDA’s. 100% of the time I get a yes. The next question I ask is where in Rev.15 and onward does it state that this same movement will Fully Apostatize, join ranks and become Babylon, there would be another coming out and another Remnant out of this movement IN THE BIBLE.

I’m still waiting for an answer from the Bible. The best effort I’ve seen are misinterpreted quotes from EGW. The problem is that she said she will not bring any new light to the table, so it has to be taught in the Bible before she would teach it to God’s people. Also, how could she say the Church is or would become Babylon when she said:

Tell them to eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God. Place His Word before them. There will be those who will misinterpret and misrepresent. Their eyes have been blinded, and they set forth the figures and interpretations that Satan has worked out for them, and an entirely wrong meaning will be placed upon the words that Sister White has spoken. Satan is just as verily claiming to be Christ's child as did Judas, who was on the accusing side. They have educated themselves in Satan's school of misstating. A description of them is given in the third chapter of Zechariah. Nothing in the world is so dear to God as His church. Satan has worked upon human minds, and will continue to betray sacred trust in a spurious way. (This is the point that I’m making.)

But God heard the prayer of Moses, whom they had criticised and envied, and Miriam was healed.
{RH, October 3, 1893 par. 5}

Shall not these lessons be of profit to those who are tempted to criticise, think evil of, speak evil of, and judge and condemn those whom God is leading and favoring? And how much worse it is to criticise and give judgment against the church that God has chosen to magnify his name and vindicate his honor, than to speak simply against an individual member. (Read carefully the history of the spies in Numbers 13 and 14.) A ruler from each of the twelve tribes of Israel was chosen to go up and spy out the land into which they were to come. Forty days were consumed in fulfilling their charge. God sent them into the land for a special purpose, but the spies brought back an evil report, full of unbelief and complaint. Before the congregation they exaggerated the difficulties to be met. But Caleb's clear, ringing voice was heard before Moses and the people, saying, "Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it. But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we." The exaggerated report of the unfaithful spies filled the people with discouragement, and they gave up in the abandonment of despair, and the leaven of murmuring spread throughout the camp of Israel. And they said one to another:-- {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 6}

Numbers 14:4-10 quoted ] {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 7}

The people were ready to batter down the men who made their voices to be heard to change the current of feeling in the congregation of the children of Israel, and it was now time for God to work. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 8}

"And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which Ihave showed among them? I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they." [Num. 14:11,12] {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 9}

Moses was then tested and proved of God. Forsake Israel? Come out from among them, and leave them in their rebellion and sin?--No, never. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 10}

[ Numbers 14:13-23 quoted ] {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 11}

Mark the whole tenor of this chapter, and learn the lesson it conveys to modern Israel. These things are written for our ensamples upon whom the ends of the world are come. We see the unbelief, and the stout resistance of some who have had great light, and although evidence has been piled upon evidence, they have kept themselves in stubborn resistance. The Lord has sent messages of warning and entreaty, messages of reproof and rebuke, and they have not been in vain. But we have never had a message that the Lord would disorganize the church. We have never had the prophecy concerning Babylon applied to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or been informed that the "loud cry" consisted in calling God's people to come out of her; for this is not God's plan concerning Israel. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 12}

In the example of Moses pleading for the children of Israel, is represented the position that we should take in regard to the people of God, however erring, or weak, or defective they may be. By the mighty cleaver of truth, the Lord has brought out a people from the quarry of the world, as he brought out of Egypt a people to keep his commandments, and at every step he has shown them that he is leading them in paths of truth and righteousness. He has sent his light and his counsels, instructing them to build institutions of learning, to provide sanitariums and publishing houses, and success has attended the carrying out of these plans. The money of the Seventh-day Adventists has not been hoarded in order that they might live delicately, but self-denial and self-sacrifice have marked their history, and still their work is to make progress, and to be aggressive. The world have a light constantly shining upon them, because this people honor God in keeping his commandments. Now can we expect that a message would be true that would designate as Babylon the people for whom God has done so much? Hell would triumph should such a message be received, and the world would be strengthened in iniquity. All the reproaches which Satan has cast upon the character of God, would appear as truth, and the conclusion would be made that God has no chosen or organized church in the world. O, what a triumph would this be to Satan and his confederacy of evil! God does not work in this way. He does just what he said he would do in the 58th chapter of Isaiah:-- {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 13}

"And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable; and shalt honor him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." - {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 14}

October 10, 1893 Respect Is Due to God's Instrumentalities.
- By Mrs. E. G. White. -

There are many sinners in Zion, and they are likened to tares among the wheat. But Christ has said, "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." We have no discouraging message for the church.

Although reproofs and cautions and corrections have been given, the church has stood as God's chosen instrumentality to diffuse light. The commandment-keeping people of God have sounded forth a warning to the world, to all languages, tongues, and kindreds. The church of God is a living witness, a continual testimony to convince men of truth if accepted, to condemn them, if resisted and rejected. {RH, October 10, 1893 par. 1}

The sin of Israel is again presented in the rebellion of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. By their representations of matters they influenced men in a course of evil.

The only reason I have not showered this electronic discussion with more potent quotes and scriptures, is because I was feeling out your earnestness in discussing this subject with an open mind. Based off of the previous e-mail, it doesn’t seem like you are willing to learn but only to teach.

Therefore I will continue to pray that the Lord will open your eyes on this subject and I’m sure you’ll pray that the Lord does the same for me. I’m thankful for Jesus’ promise that one way or the other we will know the Truth and the Truth will make us free John 8;32

Take care my brother and God Bless.

August 19, 2004

Dwayne,

I hope that these exchanges do not make us contencious towads each other. We obviously have different beliefs while we claim to be of the same faith.

I have never mentioned the word Babylon, but I want to make sure that we understand that you don't have to belong to Babylon to be lost.

My entire point that I was trying to make from the first email, was that God's True Church is NOT within the Organization. You believe it is. I have given you a number of Biblical texts to support that and Insiration as well as he Bible tells us that history will be repeated. That's all we need to know. I do not think there will be another Lot experience where we are dragged out of a city about to suffer God's displeasure. Exekiel 8 & 9 are other good texts to use. If those verses do not point to the SDA Church ...I will eat my hat.

A couple of quick points I need to make:

Did Ellen G. White Separate from the SDA Church?

Manuscript Releases Volume Seventeen, pages 63-66
Chapter Title: The Southern Work; Ellen White Disturbed by Dissension in Councils...
(Written December 2, 1902, from "Elmshaven," Sanitarium, California, to

"Dear Children Edson and Willie White.")

I thank the Lord with heart and soul and voice that my health is as good as it is. I have every reason to praise my heavenly Father for the clearness of thought that He has given me in regard to Bible subjects. I long to bring out these precious things so that the minds of ministers and people may, if possible, be drawn away from contention and strife to something that is nourishing to the soul--food that will give health, hopefulness, and courage. Many are now saying, "Report, and he will report it." Some are greedy for those things that satisfy a depraved spiritual appetite and that will ruin their religious experience, placing them outside the city of God with those who live and make a lie.

In the night season many things are passing before me. The Scriptures, full of grace and richness, are resented before me. The word of the Lord to me is: "Look on these things, and meditate on them. You may claim the rich grace of truth, which nourishes the soul. Have naught to do with controversy and dissension and strife, which bring darkness and discouragement to your soul. Truth is clear, pure, savory. Avoid all council meetings where there is dissension, and where men will neither credit My words and obey My lessons nor heed your counsel. Speak the truth in faith and love, leaving the result with God. The work is not yours, but the Lord's. In all your communications, speak as one to whom the Lord has spoken. He is your authority, and He will give you His sustaining grace."

[64]

My sons, I would have you firmly united as brothers in the flesh and as brothers in Christian fellowship.

I have a work to do, and I am now making decisions. I must remain away from conference meetings. I must not attend camp meetings. The spirit of drawing apart, as the result of judging one another, has become so common, and the churches are becoming so leavened with this spirit, that I have no desire to attend these meetings. After returning from them, it is often weeks before I am able to take up my neglected work.

Because those in positions of responsibility have for years left the Southern field unworked, notwithstanding the most decided testimonies urging them to take up this work; because they continue to neglect this field and use every manner of device in trying to uproot the confidence of the people in those who have done the hardest and most self-sacrificing work in the South, I have but very little confidence that the Lord is giving these men in positions of responsibility spiritual eyesight and heavenly discernment.

I am thrown into perplexity over their course; and I desire now to attend to my special work, to have no part in any of their councils, and to attend no meetings, nigh nor afar off. My mind shall not be dragged into confusion by the tendency they manifest to work directly contrary to the light that God has given me. I am done. I will preserve my God-given intelligence.

My voice has been heard in the different conferences and at camp meetings. I must now make a change. I cannot enter the atmosphere of strife and then have to bear testimonies that cost me much more than those to whom they are sent can imagine. When I attend the different meetings, I am compelled to deal with men, standing in responsible places, who I know are not exerting an influence that God can endorse. And when I bear a testimony in reference to their course of

[65]

action, advantage is taken of this testimony. These men have not clear understanding. Should I say the things that I know, they would not, with their present experience, use this instruction wisely, and would bring upon me inconceivable burdens.

I shall, therefore, leave them to receive word from the Bible, in which the principles upon which they should work are laid down in straight lines.

There are those who look upon themselves as the Lord's servants, but who, as shown by the way in which the Southern work has been handled, are working away from the light that God has for years been giving. I have pity for them, but I cannot be forever pointing out for them the way of righteousness. They are brought no nearer right actions by what I say than if the words were never spoken. So long as those in responsible positions see things through a false medium, they will put a wrong construction on my work.

The light I have for our ministers is: Seek God; stop your whisperings and your evil surmisings instigated by Satan, and see if the love of God will not fill heart and soul. And I will go on with my writing. This is the light given me, and I shall not depart from it.

Let all keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment. Let prayer ascend to God for the Holy Spirit's instruction. Then when it comes, look at yourselves in the great moral looking glass, God's Word, which will always tell you the truth. When God's servants work as laborers together with God out of love for Christ and the souls ready to perish, a very different atmosphere will be brought into our churches. Each man will be found in his place, recognizing the work God has put in his hands to be done for this time.

Religion not only improves but beautifies the disposition and the character. Christ must be blended with all our thoughts, our feelings, our affections.

[66]

He must be exemplified in the minutest details of everyday service in the work that He has given us to do. When, in the place of leaning upon human understanding or conforming to worldly maxims, we sit at the feet of Jesus, eagerly drinking in His words, learning of Him, and saying, "Lord, what wilt Thou have me to do?" our natural independence, our self-confidence, our strong self-will, will be exchanged for a childlike, submissive, teachable spirit. When we are in right relation to God, we shall recognize Christ's authority to direct us and His claim to our unquestioning obedience." --
Letter 186, 1902. Ellen G. White Estate Washington, D. C. May 7, 1987, [Entire Letter]
[Emphasis supplied]

I do not have any question or doubt that your Church is not teaching the Truth ... I was simply trying to show you that your alliance with the Organized Church will be brought up before the Judgment, if you are indeed aware of what the Bible and SOP says and what the state of the Church is today.

That's my entire point.

Here is a favorite quote the Church likes to use, but they never seem to quote it completely:

"Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ." 2SM 380.2

Can I ask you just a few questions?

1. Which Church is it that 'appears about to fall'?

2. Who are the 'sinners in Zion'?

3. Who or what does the 'chaff' represent?

4. Does the SDA Church today teach that we MUST 'Overcome' to be saved? (If you're not sure, I could send some recent Review articles)

5. Please brother, tell me, if in your lifetime before or hopeful future, does this portion " without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths" describe the Organization that you belong to???

6. If your answer to Question #1 was the SDA Church, is it still the same answer for Question #5?

I think we could exhaust each other with statements, I want to know how you would answer these questions. In most cases a simple Yes or No may help to show you why I have taken the time and effort to continue writing and why I urge you to not depend on what others may say or believe. It won't amount to a hill of beans in the end. If you can answer those questions and be satisfied with your answers, then I'll say Good-bye, Ican do no other.

Blessings, brother Dwayne
Bob

August 19, 2004

The book of Revelation depicts only to Churches in the Last days. Rev. 12 & 14 talks about the Remnant, and Rev. 17 & 18 talks about Babylon.

If the Organized body of SDA's is not the True church spoken of in Rev. 12 & 14, then it is Babylon. So though you may not have said it, you are saying it's Babylon. It can only be one or the other.

Secondly, I have read Ezekiel 8 & 9 and that can apply to those who are in creeping compromise in the church and falling under God's wrath, and those who cry and sigh after the abominations are those faithful members who see what's taking place and are standing in the power of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit against these evils.

As far as EGW's statement is concerned: She made it clear the reason why the Lord instructed her to stay away from the meetings. To much strife and dissension. Here's the question, was this her definite position?

As you will see, the quote you sent me was dated in 1902, here's a 1909 statement. Please explain:

I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man’s judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work and to say what plans shall be followed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body. {9T 260.1}

At times, when a small group of men entrusted with the general management of the work have, in the name of the General Conference, sought to carry out unwise [BEGIN P.261] plans and to restrict God’s work, I have said that I could no longer regard the voice of the General Conference, represented by these few men, as the voice of God. But this is not saying that the decisions of a General Conference composed of an assembly of duly appointed, representative men from all parts of the field should not be respected. God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work. {Testimonies for the Church, Volume 9;9T.

God has one true Church, and that’s the Seventh Day Adventist Church, it is full of corrupt members, yet has a faithful few. The corrupt will be lost, the faithful few will be saved.

Separation under the context of what you and other individuals like yourself have done is error.

Please note again Jesus’ Testimony:

The Lord has sent messages of warning and entreaty, messages of reproof and rebuke, and they have not been in vain. But we have never had a message that the Lord would disorganize the church. We have never had the prophecy concerning Babylon applied to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or been informed that the "loud cry" consisted in calling God's people to come out of her; for this is not God's plan concerning Israel. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 12} (You can ignore this statement if you choose but it’s powerful nevertheless.)

Separation is wrong, there is only one church we have been called to separate form and that’s Babylon. Period.

The Organization is not pure, and I never said it was. We are currently the church that is Militant but we are not yet Triumphant. However, as the Staright Testimony is given, there will come a time where the shaking will take place and God’s church will be purified.

This is when we will see many great lights go out and join ranks with Babylon. We are edging closer and closer to this time but it has not been completely fulfilled yet.

Many within the Organization will be saved, many of the Pastors will be saved, as well as the lay members. The lay people will finish the work.

You say the History repeats itself according to Eccl., and I agree, so please observe another part of history that’s being repeated:

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Again, there is only one SDA church, and that is God’s Organized body of believers worldwide. However, there are corrupt members and faithful members. Please remember that God is not going to save an Organization, he’s coming to save people. God is not coming to condemn an Organization he’s coming to condemn people who did not Keep His Commandments & have the Faith of Jesus.

There’s so much more to say, but if you choose to end this conversation I understand. I just wanted you to understand that I do not make excuses for the errors that the Body has committed. However, I will deal with it as God counseled me to deal with it. He did not counsel us to separate from this movement, and He has assured us that if we remain faithful we will have victory.

Ezekiel 8 & 9 do not apply to the Organized body, but it deals with faithful and unfaithful members. It’s like the day of Passover with the children of Israel. Whoever has the Blood of the Lamb on their hearts will be saved whoever has been faking it will be destroyed. The Bible shows Egyptians were saved, and some Israelites were lost. It’s an individual judgement, not a Corporate Judgement.

As for your questions 1-5. I am very tired right now but I’ll be more than happy to address this tomorrow.

God Bless and keep studying.

August 20, 2004

Well brother, let me say this from the onset. From what I have seen so far, I an encouraged about your sincerity and if your church were on the West Coast and in my area, I would attend it ... at least once in awhile. :)

That statement about the General Conferences used to be true, but it is no longer the case, as was evidenced at the Toronto meetings when the Church body changed the doctrines of the Church and Scripture itself by adopting a no-fault divorce code...Have you not read the statement by Sister White that states that the Voice of the GC is NO longer he voice of God? It specifically mentions Battle Creek, referring to the leadership, but it also states that it was once the voice of authority and now wasn't..." The voice from Battle Creek, which has been regarded as authority in counseling how the work should be done, is no longer the voice of God.--17MR 185 (1896)."

What do you do with the "Sister to Babylon" statement? If you are a sister to Babylon, what does that make you?

Here is anothe good statement:

"'Paul writes to the Romans, "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." But there is a point beyond which it is impossible to maintain union and harmony without the sacrifice of principle. Separation then becomes an absolute duty. The laws of nations should be respected when they do not conflict with the laws of God. But when there is collision between them, every true disciple of Christ will say, as did the apostle Peter when commanded to speak no more in the name of Jesus, "We ought to obey God rather than men."' ST 11-8-99

As you can see the texts are all there for whichever side you wish to be a part of. God allows us to make the choice, but He tells us very simply that our Judgment is determined by our evil works and not our good works. God also gives us plenty of Biblical examples to use and compare our situation by. God could never find us guilty if we were to strictly abide by the examples He has provided for us in His Word. I believe in the SOP very much, but I also believe that the statements that you are shoosing to live by for specifically written for her day and time...as bad as it was then. The Bible is also very clear that in our day and time the earth will be worse than it was during Noah's time.

When a Church Body persecutes its brothers and sisters, you, as a member, are held responsible, unless you are a public voice condemning it for it's actions. Peter made that very clear in Acts 2. He told 3000 Jewish men who were not present nor personally responsible for the crucifixion that they were indeed responsible.

Dwayne, I admire your tenacity, but other than a scattered few texts that needs to be its context closely examined .... I simply cannot agree. And what gives me even more conviction is that even though you point out many separated groups, God looks at the Heart of each individual and what his or her intent is for separating, what makes me hang on is that I'm not a part of the majority. I find comfort knowing that God's True people have never been in the majority. I'm also grateful for statements like Matt. 16:20 and UL 315 that assures me that God's presense is where two or three are gathered.

I don't have any problem supporting ministries that doing God's work even if they are associated with the Church. My son spent and entire year working in the Philippines and all this summer in South America and the Caribbean working with a couple of these ministries. I don't have a problem supporting Lay people doing God's work, God knows who they are and He will show them when it's time to leave the system. I happen to have seen it earlier than others, but it will happen to all sho choose to be faithful.

Spend some time looking through some of the Audio selections on the site. I just posted a series by Joe Crews, which I think you would learn a lot from. He doesn't cut any slack, in fact he was told to tone things down by the leadership...

If you don't believe that the Bible gives us examples through the history of the Jewish Church in both the OT and NT, I don't know what to say, but I'm glad you took the time to reply.

Oh before I forget...

Eze. 8:16 talks about 25 men who turn their back to the Temple to face the East. Are you aware of how many people are in the GC's Executive Committee?? There may be less than that number now, but during the 1930s onward, the number was give or take 25.

Rev. 12:17 -- If you follow the cerse carefully, you will note that it speaks of the remnant of her seed. Dho is the "her" and who is the" seed"? It should not be hard to figure out aho the remnant are. I'll give you a hint ... the "her" refers to the reason why there was a First Angel's message.

I won't even cover Rev. 3:14-17...if you don't believe that to be the SDA
Church then I;m speechless.

If one studies without conviction one would be better off remaing ignorant. If you haven't had any doubts raised in your mind as of yet, ask the Lord sincerely to show you the Truth regardless of here it may take you. That's a prayer of conviction, brother, and I hope you will dig until it hurts.

Bob

August 20, 2004

Well there's a lot to say about this e-mail, and I assure you I will
reply.

You'll here from me soon.

Take care

August 26, 2004

Here are one of your quotes from the last e-mail you sent:

"Dwayne, I admire your tenacity, but other than a scattered few texts that needs to be its context closely examined .... I simply cannot agree. And what gives me even more conviction is that even though you point out many separated groups, God looks at the Heart of each individual and what his or her intent is for separating, what makes me hang on is that I'm not a part of the majority. I find comfort knowing that God's True people have never been in the majority. I'm also grateful for statements like Matt. 16:20 and UL 315 that assures me that God's presense is where two or three are gathered."

You have no idea how much I agree with this point in reference to my affiliation with the Organized body. The pillars of our faith are still in tact. We certainly have leaders and quite a few, who have apostatized but there are plenty of Faithful people in this movement who are still sounding the alarm and sighing and crying against the abominable acts taking place within our separate parts of the vineyard.

I too believe that God would not destroy the “Faithful Ones” within the Organization as they remain and stand for the truth for He knows our hearts as well. He looks at our intent for staying as he looks at your intent for separating. If He’s no respector of persons, why would he favor sincere separatists yet condemn those who sincerely stay?

As to the “Sister to Fallen Babylon” quote. She means just what she said. She was counseling an Elder who was caught up in sexual sin, and she made it clear that if he and other ministers like him, do not cleanse their ways we will make ourselves akin to Fallen Babylon. We will be just like Babylon.

We have been given tons of warnings from God’s Prophets from ages past to EGW’s day on the need to shape up or else suffer the consequences. My question is who are we to decide the “cut-off” point, if God has not given us a clear word to do so.

In addition to that, notice this point:

The Lord has not given you a message to call the Seventh-day Adventists Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her. All the reasons you may present cannot have weight with me on this subject, because the Lord has given me decided light (This means “final guidance”) that is opposed to such a message. {2SM 63.2}

I do not doubt your sincerity or honesty. (Sincerity is a virtue, but it is not the test of sound doctrine) I have written long letters at different times to those who were accusing the church of Seventh-day Adventists of being Babylon, that they were not handling the truth. You think individuals have prejudiced my mind. If I am in this state, I am not fitted to be entrusted with the work of God. But this [BEGIN P.64] matter has been brought before my mind in other cases where individuals have claimed to have messages for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, of a similar character, and the word has been given me,(This means God has sent this message) "Believe them not." "I have not sent them, and yet they ran." {2SM

The other quote I sent you in the last e-mail made some strong arguments as well. Name one time that God has given finite human beings the ability to determine the “cut-off” point for any Nation, Church, or individual. It is not up to us to say when a movement has crossed the line except as it has been stated in the Word of God. Which leads me to my next point:

I am very disappointed in seeing your interpretation of Eze. 8 & 9 and trying to connect it to a prophecy to the SDA church. Observe:

Ezekiel 9

1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. 2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. 3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. (The first point is the destroying angel is going throughout Jerusalem ie: the SDA Church and some are marked or received God’s Seal and some do not. If this is a prophecy of the Organized body, then your theory is destroyed because it states that there are those in the Organization that will have God’s Seal and some who will not) 5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. 8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel( Again, based off of your theory, Israel here, represents the Organized body) in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? 9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. 10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head. 11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

In the eighth chapter of Ezekiel, it points out seventy of the ancients, as well as the 25 worshiping towards the sun. Who are the seventy ancients if this supposedly points out the SDA Church.

I respect your FEELINGS on this issue, because it’s easy to see what our church is doing and develop a righteous indignation towards it and separate. We must remember that Proverbs 14;12 says; “There’s a way that seems right unto a man, but the end there of are the ways of death”

I will not allow my emotions to cause me to separate.

The point you made about we are judged by our evil works but not our good works. I’d like to know how you came to that conclusion Biblically because the Bible clearly says:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Unless I misunderstood your point we will certainly be judged (Meaning Final Decision Made) based off of our evil or good works.

I have 2 questions, if you’re willing to answer them.

1) How could you prove that the clear statements made by EGW in reference to the church not falling or being Babylon are only applicable in her day, but now it’s a different story. And what makes our day so different from her day?

2) The Church started to come together shortly after 1844, it was Organized in 1863, however we did not have a solitified stand on Righteousness by Faith until 1888. My question is between 1844 & 1888 we had divided views on Righteousness by Faith amongst our leadership. Did this contention make our church Babylon or an Apostate?

I appreciate your responding to my letters, and taking the time to talk with me. But I have a lot of Biblical evidence and SOP evidence to support my position. The many independent movements that I’ve encountered and even fellowshipped with though they be good people who seem to love the Lord, have not REALLY given much support for their separation based off of the scriptures, and SOP. It seems like it’s more of a concluding thought they have developed. As a result of no clear counsel.

That’s all I want my brother is a clear “thus saith the Lord”. God has been clear with every other teaching that we hold as SDA’s . Every single one of them!!!!!!!!!!

However, when it comes to this particular subject of the church being Babylon, there’s a lot of pulling together of quotes and scriptures that aren’t even addressing the issue and are being manipulated to say something that the writer was not even saying. This has been my experience thus far, therefore I remain unmoved.

I do recognize my church doing many horrible things in the name of God but these are the comforting counsels that God has given me, I pray one day it will bring you comfort as well:

No Need for Fear

There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work, God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port. {2SM 390.2}

We should remember that the church, enfeebled and defective though it be, is the only object on earth on which Christ bestows His supreme regard. He is constantly watching it with solicitude, and is strengthening it by His Holy Spirit.--Manuscript 155, 1902[1]

A Statement by W. C. White

I TOLD HER [MRS. LIDA SCOTT] HOW MOTHER REGARDED THE EXPERIENCE OF THE REMNANT CHURCH, AND OF HER POSITIVE [BEGIN P.57] TEACHING THAT GOD WOULD NOT PERMIT THIS DENOMINATION TO SO FULLY APOSTATIZE THAT THERE WOULD BE THE COMING OUT OF ANOTHER CHURCH.--W. C. White to E. E. Andross, May 23, 1915 (What I found to be interesting about this quote is that this was a month or so before EGW passed away. If her son was being deceptive and if she was still alive, surely the Lord would have addressed it. When others misused the Testimonies, EGW addressed it so that the people would not be deceived ro confused, especially on this subject. It would be contrary to the Spirit’s leading for the Servant of the Lord to remain silent on a subject like this, if she taught that the Church would Apostatize and there would be another coming out. Yet she gave no rebuke to this statement.)

It’s reasons like these my brother and many more that cause me to hold fast my position and to proclaim the error of these independent movements.

May God help us and lead us into the unity of the Faith and His Spirit.
God Bless.

August 31, 2004

Brother Dwayne,

I do wish to make a quick response.

I asked YOU some questions which you promised you would address regarding 2SM 380. I do not know if you neglected to answer those questions intentionally or unintentionally, but I do have answers to your questions and I will not address them unless you are willing to address mine. And by the way, you also never responded to my question regarding Ezekiel 21:1-5.

And it wouldn't hurt you to also look up PP 578.2 ... as a member in good standing, this quote would concern me, if you understand what I'm saying. I will, though, point out that it appears to me that you have NOT read or studied from Vol. 5 of the Testimonies. otherwise how could you have come to the conclusion that Ezekiel 8 & 9 are not applicabale to the SDA Church?

It is possible that the statement regarding becoming a "sister to Babylon" was made in reference to a specific man's sin ... perhaps you can make the same distinction about the Review & Herald article she wrote on Aug 1, 1893....

Please note that I prefer to not print most quotes so that you will look them up and perhaps recall them at some future point in your life.

You have yet failed to see the difference between being a Seventh-day Adventist by conviction and belief than from being an SDA member in good standing. That point wil be what separates the shhep from the goats, trust me on this, Dwayne.

And brother, your comment about:

"The point you made about we are judged by our evil works but not our good
works. I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion Biblically because
the Bible clearly says:"

...have you read the book "Steps to Christ? or even Proverbs? I am beginning to wonder why I am having these email exchanges with you! I do not wish to come across in a patronizing way, but you are not that well informed, brother. You may have many quotes on hand, but you are not using your God-given judgment faculty to be discerning. I suppose that if I allowed you, you would also argue that the Jewish Church during the time of Christ has no correlation with the SDA Church of our day.

Wake up brother, seriously.

Blessings
Bob

August 31, 2004

"As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24." GC 483.1

"The angel with the writer's ink horn is to place a mark upon the foreheads of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel follows this angel (Letter 12, 1886)." 7A 1161.5 (I would again urge you to read Eze. 21:1-5, until you have memorized it)

"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost." 5T 214.2 (from the same chapter that deals with Eze. 9)

This above quote is plainly stating that no one with sin in thier life will receive the latter rain...if you don't receive the latter rain,,,what else will you notreceive, brother?

Brother Dwayne, if you don't understand Chapter 9 of Ezekiel, with all the commentaries that she has given about that chapter, how can you possibly discern a chapter where there are fewer comments made and it takes personal study to be able to see what scripture is pointing too? The words above should bring fear and trembling to us all. The judgments of God will come upon the SDA Church before it comes upon the those of the world. If you do not understand the significance of the above quotes, I would be doing some very serious Bible studying to see whether or not your position can withstand all the pointed testimonies relevant to us today.

Whether you are willing to accept it or not, you are part of the Laodicean Church and if you place such a high value on your Church membership, it will become your downfall, because it will not allow you to separate as long as your mental concept is as it is today. There is a little line in EW 198 that you will understand if you read it...it will jump out at you.

If entire congregations will be lost, what makes you think that partial or smaller groups in churches like yours or even mine will not fare the same fate?

Please brother Dwayne, forgive me for my plain speaking. I am literally a blind man, and searching and studying to find these quotes have not been easy for me, and maybe I got a bit frustrated because you are coming across like most if not all SDAs that believe they will be in heaven...regardless...

I hope and pray for your sake, that it was not a vain effort on my part and even on your part to engage in these exchanges. Some day soon we will know the results and I pray that you will be faithful to the calling of the Holy Spirit in your life and those that are under your influence. I will most likely post these messages on the Letters section of the website because I believe they will be of help to others as well.

May God be with you
Bob

September 1, 2004

Bob, Calm down, breathe in and breathe out. Your e-mail was so hostile that I can’’t imagine how you could ever have a Bible study with someone. You are being very Rude and Impatient and that attitude has nothing to do with the One whom you claim you follow. If I ask questions that give you flash backs of other conversations you’’ve had with people who are members of the SDA Church, that still should not give you license to respond in such a way.

Rather than your snide comments about waking up and so on, provide the information and enlighten me on your points. I provided you with a text in relation to the fact that we are judged by our works. If you disagree, please share the information with me. Whether I get it now or later at least you shared the info for a witness.

How could you love those who hate you and persecute you and you can’’t even handle an e-mail exchange without getting insulting and rude. This is the consistent problem with those whom I have encountered in Independent movements though they eat well, and are evenly clad in their garments, the manifestation of the Fruit of the Spirit is lacking. Please think about that.

Now, if you post our exchanges on the site I would kindly ask that you not edit these e-mail exchanges, and include all of the arguments we have exchanged so that the readers can make a clear decision for themselves. I think that’’s what any good honest Christian would do. To do anything otherwise would make you akin to the enemy because he too slanders God’’s people.

I agree that the message in Ezekiel 8 & 9 can be applied to the SDA Church. There are many scriptures that can have the same affect. The fact that you tried to tie the prophecy to the SDA Church by acknowledging the 25 men who worshipped the sun and then say that this applies to the one time 25 leaders in the GC is not true.

In addition to that, I have never said that my membership with the SDA Church will save me. Not Once have I ever said such a thing. My personal commitment to Jesus Christ will determine whether I’’m lost or saved.

The Laodicean Church is a lukewarm church that Jesus is calling to repent. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

For those who repent they shall be saved, for those who do not they shall be lost. This is my understanding of the Laodicean Church in a nut shell.

It appears to me that because you’’ve had discussions with many members of the Organized body, as you mentioned you are getting frustrated. I also believe it’’s causing you to not pay attention to my previous e-mails. I have sent you STRONG arguments against the points you shared with me and these arguments need to be addressed one by one, in order for me to consider looking at the Word of God otherwise.

I have read 2SM pg 380. It states:

““Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. {2SM 380.2}[1]””

When she references the Church, she is not talking about individuals but a Movement, Body of believers. The reason this is a fact is because she mentions the sinners (multiple people) in Zion (Zion has always been described in the scriptures as God’’s Church) will be shaken out. Those who are shaken out are those who have compromised and left the church. Please read LDE pgs. 172-179 there are constant references to those who are shaken out as the ones who leave the church.

I agree 100% with the quote from PP 578 2. This coincides with the story of the Watchman in Ezekiel 33;1-9. I have no issues with the quote. We are responsible for ones sins if we turn a blind eye to their sin or do not address it even though it’’s seen. However we are also told that if we have sounded the trumpet (Isa. 58;1) and they continue in sin then their sins are on their heads.

Now as to Ezekiel 21;1-5

I have observed a few point

I have also read chapters 37 & 38 of PK and it shows me that as God was going to deliver the children of Israel to Babylon and greatly punish them for their iniquities, there was also a promise of deliverance. In reference to verse 5, here’s what the Commentaries state on this subject:

5. Not return any more. That is, until it had completed its mission. Then it must of necessity return. The expression ““not return any more”” must be taken in this limited sense. The same idea of restricted duration is found in ch. 20:48 , where it is stated that the fires of God’’s judgments shall not be quenched (see comment there). Similar expressions are at times mistakenly taken to mean that there will be no end to the punishment. In each case the length of continuance must be determined by the context (see on ch. 30:13 ).

Please keep in mind the origin of this subject which is, has God given us a word to “come out” of the SDA Church. I have asked for information from you to substantiate that, these are the quotes you have given me and I have addressed them to the best of my knowledge. Please share with me your thoughts,

As mentioned, please include this e-mail along with ALL the previous e-mails so that the readers can have a balanced view. Anything less or more would truly be slander.

I look forward to your response.

September 2, 2004

Dear Dwayne,

I have been duly chastised and I’’m sorry for offending you, please accept my apologies. My comment about "waking up, though, were as sincerely stated as I could. My letter to you bore more of a righteous indignation, than and attempt to embarrass you. It was strongly worded because we had been going around the same issues for some time now and I being blind, thought you would have captured some of these issues in your personal readings. So, yes I was frustrated, and I know that is one of my weakest points and one that the devil will have a hay-day with until I make the effort to overcome it.

To be honest with you, brother, some of the comments that you made in this last email convinces me that you have been influenced by the New Theology that has swept the SDA Church.

So, yes, we are judged by our works, BUT we are not saved by them. My point to you was that one unconfessed or cherished sin will completely erase ALL the good works that have been written in the Book of Life by our name. I’’m still not sure if you understand that or not by your comment. Here the Steps to Christ quote that I was alluding too:

"Even one wrong trait of character, one sinful desire, persistently cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel. Every sinful indulgence strengthens the soul's aversion to God. The man who manifests an infidel hardihood, or a stolid indifference to divine truth, is but reaping the harvest of that which he has himself sown. In all the Bible there is not a more fearful warning against trifling with evil than the words of the wise man that the sinner ‘‘shall be holden with the cords of his sins.’’ Proverbs 5:22" SC 34.1

Salvation is not derived by works nor by grace alone. We can see the examples of the leper, Namaan and the paralytic whom Jesus healed on the Sabbath. Sure, they had to take a step in faith to go into the Jordan or to attempt to stand up, but they certainly did not get healed because of these "works".

Let me touch on Ezekiel 8:16. What is depicted is a group of men turning their backs to the temple and bowing towards the East. I commented that those 25 individuals symbolically represent the Executive Committee of the GC. Now, brother Dwayne, who do you say is representing your churches policies and values from the corporate level? Do not all final decisions for the church at large come from this group of individuals? So, when the majority of SDA churches hold some type of Easter celebration or service on Sabbath or even Sunday morning to celebrate the Resurrection and stand before the rising light of dawn, would you say that they have the blessings of those that set policies and have the ability to tell people to not do this abomination? How about all the ecumenical moves and alliances that the Church has made and done so proudly? Did you ever see the cover of a 1998 Signs of the Times with pope JP II in full regalia and a very nice article inside to accompany the cover? Brother, do you want to tell me that you are willing to align yourself with these leaders and that you are not supporting their agendas when you voluntarily deposit your tithes and offerings?

Do you think that God is going to allow anyone to claim that they were unjustly lost because the Bible did not make things plain enough? Especially when you see what happened to the Jews in A.D. 70, how many of those that perished were wicked and deserved this fate? Is it possible that Ezekiel 21 was initially pointing to this time in history and perhaps to ours as well? Are we not told that the trials that will face the end time people will be the severest that the world has ever seen?

The Church that appears to fall is as you stated God’’s true people, and like the Church of God that has existed throughout history, it has never been a consecrated and organized group, though God has always intended it to be. God’’s true and faithful people have always been in the minority, even within their own "church". Is it a coincidence that Christ was killed by the members of His own church?

My son just returned from working with David Gates’’ ministry in South America. This ministry is unlike mine, it fully endorses the SDA Church, but works independent of it, meaning it is completely self-supporting. Yet, the South American division has some men in high positions that will disfellowship anyone that supports this ministry. In much the same manner as the little group in South Florida were disfellowshipped and persecuted by legal prosecution for preaching the Three Angels Messages over the radio and through tabloids, but the "legal" reason that allowed this to occur was because they continued using the name Seventh-day Adventist AFTER they were disfellowshipped....a trademark suit. This has happened to others more times than I have fingers in both hands. So, my next question to you would have to be, Dwayne, in how many of these cases have you been a supporter and contributor of? Are you willing to take the gamble that God will shrug His shoulders and look the other way, when you have been told and encouraged to study this issue and seriously look at your options? I don’’t ant to be held responsible for staying quiet. I’’m not sure this verse fits the description of what is going on between us, but I believe it is applicable: "For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;" Eze. 3:5. Do you think that the priests of Baal will have a case when they complain that Elijah was rude or unChristlike before Elijah killed them? I can give Bible studies to those that are willing to listen and be discerning. I have given you more than ample information to take and study and pray earnestly over. To me, it is apparent that you are not convinced that you are corporately responsible for the actions of the group that you are a member of and have an allegiance with.
I am willing to work and show you the truths that have convinced me, but Dwayne, you have not shown me real interest in studying this thoroughly out or that the efforts expended were worthwhile. Evidently, you have already given this issue a look and have convinced yourself that it is a non-issue as far as you are concerned. I am sorry that I am so strait-laced in discussing this issue, but I am not writing to someone that is ignorant of the truth nor has any available resources at hand.

I am also not ashamed to post your response not my reply on the website. I do wish I had been more charitable towards you, but in reality we have both reached this point kicking and screaming. You are convinced that you are correct and I am convinced that God’’s True Church will not be associated with any part of Babylon, which mens confusion and aptly describes the SDA Church today, not 100+ years ago.

I have consciously tried to answer all your questions, but again because I actually am blind, I have not reread your last message to make sure.....I will just mention one point aht will convince you that I have lost my marbles. But which I have just recently carefully studied: Was Christ crucified on Friday or on Wednesday??? Don’’t be too hasty in answering. I will say this, a close and careful study of Scripture will answer this question and in some cases you may have to go back to the original texts. The other side of that questio would be was Christ resurrected on Sunday or could it have been Sabbath at dusk??? I do believe that there are still some truths to be discovered from the Bible even at this late date in history....

Take good care and may God bless you

Bob